CSA industrialization

Is it possible to get CSA industrialization by 1910's to the extent it would survive 3-4 years of WW1-style warfare with Union?
CSA is on Entente side(As it British ally), US decided to join at the last moment CP and revenge War of Secession. That's not important, main question is :
How heavily industrialized CSA must be to hold on it's own with tiny(or non-existent) British help, as Britain would be dealing with USN and HSF. Is this even possible to industrialize as fast as Japan for South?
 
Near ASB. With luck on its side the South might be as advanced as it was OTL in 1876 by TTL 1905. It would have to rebuild almost entirely on its own, it would have to pay a massive debt, it would have a giant hostile country surrounding it on three sides necessitating a large army, will almost certainly be suffering from runaway inflation to the tune of 10% a month or more and its main export is declining in price.
 
You would also need a cultural change in the South. My understanding is that the top of the social pyramid is the wealthy land owning planters. These "Gentlemen" would need to accept industrialists as their equal and an acceptable profession for their sons to go into. Otherwise the best and the brightest would not go into manufacturing.
 
You would also need a cultural change in the South. My understanding is that the top of the social pyramid is the wealthy land owning planters. These "Gentlemen" would need to accept industrialists as their equal and an acceptable profession for their sons to go into. Otherwise the best and the brightest would not go into manufacturing.
is it possible that those same landowners go into manufacturing
 
is it possible that those same landowners go into manufacturing

Their capital is already heavily tied up and can't be liquidated very easily, either practically or socially (given that's where their status comes from and the culture is against it: chicken and the egg problem). You'd need to find a rising industrial class in Dixon society and integrate them into the ruling class, which Prussia managed to pull off due to the Zoulverien, Britain did due to captive colonial markets and overseas trade that produced a merchantile community, ect. Dixie has none of these possabilities of a suddenly opened up market to give her nassicent industry space to grow without bumping up against the landed elite
 

RousseauX

Donor
Is it possible to get CSA industrialization by 1910's to the extent it would survive 3-4 years of WW1-style warfare with Union?
CSA is on Entente side(As it British ally), US decided to join at the last moment CP and revenge War of Secession. That's not important, main question is :
How heavily industrialized CSA must be to hold on it's own with tiny(or non-existent) British help, as Britain would be dealing with USN and HSF. Is this even possible to industrialize as fast as Japan for South?
Isn't this the plot line from turtledove books?
 
The best case scenario for CSA industrialization is to be as industrialized as say, Italy, by 1910. However, the planter class that created the CSA was dismissive of the industrialists of the North, and looked down on wage workers seeing the true American ideal as small yeoman farmers. However, the cash crop economy would probably suit them poorly and by the 1880s cotton prices they use to keep their economy going will be in decline, which may see a corresponding decline in slave prices. If slave prices decline, then you see the only possibility where they might be willing to trade their chattel wealth for a more fungible asset.

Essentially, you'd have to see the value of slaves fall as such that they are no longer worth collateral to smaller landowners and do not represent a good cost/benefit analysis economically. If it got to the point where the powerful planter class of the Confederacy decided that their chattel wealth was worth less than cash wealth you see a 'buy out' of the slaves by the Confederate government, whereby the slaves then become the property of the state. In return the planters receive a tidy sum which they could then actually invest in something, say ships, factories, textiles, ect.

Say this takes place in the late 1890s, then the Confederacy has 10-15 years to build a more industrial economy. It would be vastly inferior to the Union economy and only potentially able to provide for the Confederacy's domestic needs.

This is about the only way I could picture the Confederacy industrializing to be worth a damn.
 
Recipe for rabbit stew, step 1. Catch rabbit!

I personally think the CSA even surviving with a POD any time after Lincoln's election is close to ASB. Assassinate Lincoln before he takes office? Fine...now we have Hannibal Hamlin instead. I think the Republicans would prosecute and win the Civil War. Pre-1860 PODs that result in a CSA must get there via a crisis similar to that of 1860 which will surely involve a strong movement analogous to the Republicans, otherwise the secessionist leaders would prefer to go on sock-puppeting the US federal government as they historically had at least since the age of Jackson. The secessionists were basically people who dominated the USA for all it was worth, and then tried to cut loose when evolving attitudes and demographics turned against them; you don't get a CSA without their opposition forming and getting strong first.

In order to discuss CSA post-ACW you need to first set the stage for the Union accepting a truce and letting the CSA be admitted to the community of recognized nations at all. Lots of TL's try this but they suffer from characteristic shortcomings as plausible TLs. Anyway everything depends on how the CSA survives, in what condition. Presumably they need strong foreign allies; will Britain, despite her many particular reasons to rejoice in setbacks for the USA, stand by the Confederacy? Will Napoleon III, especially considering his regime was loosely a British ally? Would it be in their interests to abet CSA industrialization, or would they much prefer the CSA to remain a dependent agricultural de facto colony? As noted above, what kind of society does the CSA have? Since slavery was the root reason for secession in the first place, anyone suggesting "they wise up and free the slaves" is indulging in the characteristic sloppiness of most Confederacy Survives TLs. They might wind up having to abolish slavery but something will have to twist the arms of the very same people who founded and ruled the thing.

IMHO the whole secession, and the general mentality of the people who led it, was concentrated idiocy and it imploded for good reasons. This leaves little room for rational contemplation of how it might fare!

I think it highly unlikely as I said that Northern leaders would just shrug and let them go--indeed many people did voice just such sentiments, but the question is if it came down to the point would a sufficient majority of them stick to it and face the consequences? Obviously there were arguments for doing just that since the consequences of refusing to allow the secession were quite severe.

Clearly if we are going to play this game, there are just a tremendous range of scenarios. Nerf the whole Civil War with someone other than Lincoln throwing in the towel immediately? That is a tremendously different situation than imagining the South wins some early battles so decisively the Union comes to terms after a year or two of civil war. Britain or France or both jump in as active allies? Highly improbable, especially despite Britains strong rivalries with America because of strong lower class sentiment against fighting the Union; this probably requires that Britain has some sort of strong reactionary regime. Certainly OTL American slavery was quite deplored even among the privileged conservatives who profited quite a lot from it. A POD might alter the whole tone and trajectory of Victoria's reign, perhaps by getting rid of her or just having something nasty happen in the 1840s like an abortive Chartist revolution leading to a highly reactionary regime; say the Chartists kill Victoria but then Wellington crushes them. Such a Britain might jump in, but we have to game out the consequences for British strength and power too. If Britain is so changed that the Empire is aggressively backing the CSA it is quite conceivable the net outcome is the two allies destroy the USA completely and the CSA leadership, not being quite total idiots, see to it that terms of creating a new puppet regime or three in the north (Britain hardly wants to see the CSA replace the USA after all, balkanization where they have a finger in both pies is their goal) and their general relations with Britain are not disadvantageous and favor their economic progress. I suspect that while slavery is inefficient in the industrial context, it would nevertheless be possible for slaves to be made to produce effective output and for a complex mixed slave/free industrial economy of some sorts to emerge from such a sweeping victory for the slaveocrats. You see, they have whips. And chains. I think there is more scope for CSA success along these lines if they double down on slavery than if they belatedly get on the enlightenment bandwagon. The whole 20th century might be a much starker conflict between property in a firmly and forthrightly reactionary framework brutally cracking down on the working people of all types everywhere, and equally brutal and desperate radicals, the whole concept of democracy might go by the board....which come to think of it makes this post of mine belong in another thread!

So I suppose it can be done but not in a pretty way.

The most likely way to have a CSA existing with a POD not long before 1860 is to have different Republicans who hand themselves an idiot ball or three and wind up fumbling the secession crisis, painting themselves into a political corner so that they first huff and puff and alienate Britain, maybe with some half-baked scheme to turn on Canada instead (I understand, perhaps misled by a not entirely reliable source, that Seward proposed such a volte-face) that blows up in their faces; they then ignominiously scramble for peace at all costs, surrender the border states and Washington DC to the Confederacy, and (if shots were fired in the north) other land to the British enlarging Canada to be, and get their act together later. This buys the Confederacy easy recognition and the support of European allies and allows them to face their internal problems as squarely as the nature of their leadership lets them. I think military necessity--everyone knows the Union is liable to go for round 2 sooner or later--might be adequately met, but this, along with the ideologically ramshackle nature of the CSA constitution that distilled the IMHO wrongheadedness of their whole project, will lock them into a quasi-dictatorship--which to be fair is ideologically consistent with slavery! On paper white CSA people are free, and considerable effective democracy would be in play, but in a fashion not conducive to systematic industrialization. A strong arms-oriented sector agreed to by consensus will to an extent serve as a springboard, but then the bad organization and warped social priorities of the victors will nerf it. Result, a heavy handed quasi-police state reliant on force and coercion, a highly disgruntled and alienated bunch of poor whites facing a strong but self-limiting quasi-aristocratic slaveocracy. The poor whites will not generally be what we would call progressive; systematic racism will be piled higher and deeper and turned against many people who passed as "white" OTL. Britain, if not herself transformed from OTL Victorian notions of progress and morality so as to become indifferent to or actively supportive of slavery, will maintain a facade of detachment contradicted by de facto alliance, and will be successful in steering the Confederacy in directions satisfactory to them, which probably means more stunting of CSA theoretical potentials. They might even short circuit the hothouse arms industry in favor of CSA being dependent on purchasing British made arms, even if the first generation of CSA leadership is shrewd enough to prevent immediate indirect rule.

Result--a dictatorial reactionary hellhole, a sort of right wing North Korea pariah state. Or perhaps it is most likely they survive at all in a situation where that type of setup is pretty much the norm everywhere, in Britain, in the paranoid and defensive Union, in Canada, in France; the whole liberal "project" implodes everywhere, much to the gratification of people like the Russian Tsars, Bismarck, the Hohenzollern king/Kaisers, etc.

But finally I repeat, I don't see this as highly probable. Most probably the CSA is reconquered by the Union more or less as OTL and things go on from there, in a range of possibilities depending on details.
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
Of course it is POSSIBLE

Whether the course of events gets more than a 10-20% possibility is a different thing, but butterflies breed butterflies

The main thing is to get foreign investment, much like how pre-WW1 Russia got foreign investment
 
For all the talk on this board of how compatible slavery and industry were, I have yet to hear a convincing explanation for why the south lagged so far behind the north. There's no reason to expect that gap to close after independence unless Richmond or state governments start to invest in more arms production out of military necessity, and that will be a drop in the bucket compared to the raw capacity of the US. The south is not well positioned institutionally, ideologically, socially, or in trade policy to see an industrial boom. Its small industrial base will be labor intensive and extremely undercapitalized. By the turn of the century, almost any US state with a decent population will single-handedly outproduce the CSA, some multiple times over.

India, Egypt, Central Asia, and any other region of the world people like to point to as an alternative to Confederate cotton are inferior in quantity and quality. That's going to continue to get the lion's share of investment in the south for another 50 years after secession.
 
, you'd have to see the value of slaves fall as such that they are no longer worth collateral to smaller landowners and do not represent a good cost/benefit analysis economically. If it got to the point where the powerful planter class of the Confederacy decided that their chattel wealth was worth less than cash wealth you see a 'buy out' of the slaves by the Confederate government, whereby the slaves then become the property of the state. In return the planters receive a tidy sum which they could then actually invest in something, say ships, factories, textiles, ect


Problem with this: by 1890, Britain and France are already blowing down the tariff walls of any nation you can manage, and you'll bet your biscuts that's going to include Dixie. Infant southern industry would be crushed by forgein imports, and youd have a Confederate government carrying a truely massive debt load and huge new expenses in slave maitenence and repression. How are they going to keep solvent without raising taxes on domestic production and consumption... the very thing they're trying to encourage, when they can't liquify their slaves? Inflation? Declare Bankruptcy of suspend payments? See how well that worked out for literally anybody else who tried...
 
At the time of the ACW the basic political philosophy of the powerful in the CSA was low to nonexistent tariffs. The plantocracy of the south sells agricultural goods to the world and imports what it needs in terms of industrial goods. A huge percentage of investment capital in the south was tied up in slaves, and much of the rest in land. Another problem is your industrial workforce. Southerners in general looked down on industrial workers ("mudsills") and the only possible way it might work is to have strictly segregated job categories. Even then those white workers in a factory, even if they were in jobs a step or two above slaves, suffer by being seen as doing "nigger work". You know no matter what there will be overlap, some jobs that are "slave" in factory A might be "white" in factory B and vice-versa due to local labor conditions and the fact that one factory owner may have "spare" slaves on the books to put to work. Pretty much all aspects, social,political, economic structure of the CSA are against industrialization beyond what is considered absolutely necessary or where it would have a large economic/price advantage.

While the UK and France might have been sympathetic to the CSA during the ACW and helpful in the CSA achieving independence, slavery is going to be a hurdle for a lot of investors. Buying slave produced cotton to be milled in Britain/France is one thing, investing in the CSA where British or French investors are defacto slave masters is quite another.
 
So... With regards to the Southern economy it was really... third world. With the wealth and land concentrated in the hands of aristocrats while the infrastructure is meant to export things to the coast without a great focus on internal networks. The result was a fractured internal market, the starting industrialization would be either nascent industries servicing local markets; problem is they will be up against established European imports, the aristocratic nature of the CSA also limits the internal mass market size. Trade policy here is also a problem, the CSA would have to balance protectionism vs their desire to export their cash crop economy, I don't think cotton prices would go the same way as IOTL the reason for the depression was the disruption of CSA supplies during the war and development of alternatives, it might not happen the same way here.

Industries complimentary to resource extraction will start up if only to reduce transport costs, ie ironwork and such. I just don't see the states rights focused, economically fragmented regions as one coherent economy. Now industrial slavery on the other hand, that could definitely work; just look at authoritarian governments like the soviet union. The main problem would be innovation, slaves aren't a great source for that but the CSA is tuned into the European sphere and can definitely keep up if there was the will.
 
So... With regards to the Southern economy it was really... third world. With the wealth and land concentrated in the hands of aristocrats while the infrastructure is meant to export things to the coast without a great focus on internal networks. The result was a fractured internal market, the starting industrialization would be either nascent industries servicing local markets; problem is they will be up against established European imports, the aristocratic nature of the CSA also limits the internal mass market size. Trade policy here is also a problem, the CSA would have to balance protectionism vs their desire to export their cash crop economy, I don't think cotton prices would go the same way as IOTL the reason for the depression was the disruption of CSA supplies during the war and development of alternatives, it might not happen the same way here.

Industries complimentary to resource extraction will start up if only to reduce transport costs, ie ironwork and such. I just don't see the states rights focused, economically fragmented regions as one coherent economy. Now industrial slavery on the other hand, that could definitely work; just look at authoritarian governments like the soviet union. The main problem would be innovation, slaves aren't a great source for that but the CSA is tuned into the European sphere and can definitely keep up if there was the will.

The one thing you don't have to worry about is "State's Rights" as that was just an excuse after the war. In reality, there were more bureaucrats in Richmond than in Washington. Only one side dictated salt prices, established internal passports in its own territory, forced the railroads to operate at a loss, and dictated what shippers have to carry and it wasn't the Union.
 
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Of course it is POSSIBLE

Whether the course of events gets more than a 10-20% possibility is a different thing, but butterflies breed butterflies

The main thing is to get foreign investment, much like how pre-WW1 Russia got foreign investment
Try 0.01% probability.
 
The one thing you don't have to worry about is "State's Rights" as that was just an excuse after the war. In reality, there were more bureaucrats in Richmond than in Washington. Only one side dictated salt prices, established internal passports in its own territory, forced the railroads to operate at a loss, and dictated what shippers have to carry and it wasn't the Union.

Ty, I'm a bigger fan of the economics than the politics.
 
I mean, for the South to be an industrialized nation by WWI capable of waging a Verdun-type battle, it needs to do significantly better than OTL South.

I am deeply skeptical of the notion that the people who decided the American Civil War was a good idea would do a better job than OTL. Maybe comparable, maybe a little better, but I doubt significantly better.

That being said, one point about the OP that is worth addressing is the question of whether the South could reach Japanese levels of industrialization to fight a war like the Western front of World War I.

I think that's just a question that can't be the answer. The problem with that is that I think the South could reach levels comparable to OTL Meiji Japan. Because I think OTL South and OTL Meiji Japan were roughly comparable. But OTL Meiji Japan didn't have the industrial capacity to wage that kind of war. Not in 1914. The Russo-Japanese War was incredibly bloody, but it wasn't on the same level as the Somme or Verdun (ie, think of the sheer amount of shells fired between France and Germany, Japan couldn't pull that off).

A lot of people, especially in the West, dramatically overestimate the rate of Japanese industrial progress. Japan in 1914 was significantly poorer than even the "poor" nations of the West, from Spain to Austria to Russia to Mexico. I think Japan only surpassed Russia in the aftermath of the violence of the Russian Civil War/Bolshevik meme economics, but I think surpassing places like Spain and Mexico only happened after World War II.

So I think a CSA could have "industrialized" to the same extent Japan did. Because that's actually not an incredibly high level of industrialization compared to the rest of North America. That would allow it to fight a battle like the Battle of Mukden. It couldn't fight something like the Somme or Verdun.
 
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Isn't this the plot line from turtledove books?

What's worst about the Turtledove books is that he takes inspiration from the worst possible theater of WWI to take inspiration from. The common perception of WWI in the West are the trenches of Somme, Verdun, static stalemate. But that wasn't actually the reality of WWI everywhere. That only existed in France because of a narrow front between two highly industrialized powers.

That was not the nature of warfare in say, the Eastern Front. The Eastern Front was not static. Just take for example the Brusilov Offensive, where the Russians destroyed the Austro-Hungarian army and advanced more in days than the entire Anglo-French armies did the entire war. Same goes in reverse for German advances against Russia. Or the Austrian conquest of Serbia.

Honestly, most of the participants in WWI could be said to have a comparable level of industrialization to the OTL American South. Russia, Austria, Romania, Serbia, the Ottoman Empire, Japan, etc. etc. Semi-industrialized countries.

So an independent CSA, I think, could put up a fight against the USA in a WWI-style war. But it wouldn't be putting up a fight like France did against Germany. It'd be putting up a fight like the Ottoman Empire against Britain. If Britain had the numerical advantage. So honestly, they'd get creamed.

My personal belief is that the closest approximation of how a US-CSA war would end up is the Romanian Front of WWI (the Germany-Romania gap probably comparable to the USA-CSA gap). I mean, Romania put up a fight, but it didn't go very well for Romania.
 
That was not the nature of warfare in say, the Eastern Front. The Eastern Front was not static. Just take for example the Brusilov Offensive, where the Russians destroyed the Austro-Hungarian army and advanced more in days than the entire Anglo-French armies did the entire war. Same goes in reverse for German advances against Russia. Or the Austrian conquest of Serbia.

If we assume this independent CSA has its 1861 borders plus the Indian Territory, I think some form of trench warfare could develop around Virginia. The many rivers would still afford a great measure of protection against invasion. But I think the rest of the front is more similar to the Eastern Front. Huge open plains where most rivers aid the enemy instead of serving as defense lines. I don't think the Confederacy could build trenches from Virginia to Texas either, as even in the better of cases its industry is bound to be weak. At the end, it would be like OTL's Civil War, with the USA trying to break the defenses around Virginia while the Confederacy blunders in the West and ultimately losses.
 
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