CS Victory: US Culture?

Wolfpaw

Banned
All on the tin.

Let's presume that the CSA manages to win independence by '62-'63 and has the below borders, plus the Indian Territory.


So, what are some of the cultural butterflies we're likely to see in the US?
 

d32123

Banned
Would butterflying jazz culture be one of them?
Likely jazz culture and almost all of black culture in the United States gets butterflied away. One thing I've always wondered is how a USA without a Great Migration would develop? Would it just develop slower economically or would more immigrants be brought over from Europe or Asia for the labor? That could have pretty significant effects.
 
Likely jazz culture and almost all of black culture in the United States gets butterflied away. One thing I've always wondered is how a USA without a Great Migration would develop? Would it just develop slower economically or would more immigrants be brought over from Europe or Asia for the labor? That could have pretty significant effects.
More immigration, but the worker's movement is most likely stronger than OTL.

US culture would probably be more "European" in this sense at least: Oh, yes we're liberal compared to the backwards CSA. Whoa, whoa, you can't immigrate here! You're bl-I mean, you don't fit our culture!
 
Well, I guess the US might have immigrants from Ireland, Eastern Europe and Scandinavia for sure. Another thing would be, what would the CS victory do to the African community in let's say, Canada? Now that the CS won and slavery is still existing, what of the Underground Railroad?
 
If the CSA got help from Britain or France, I could see some anti British and French sentiment. Plus anti-Confederate sentiment. For a generation or two the confederacy will probably be despised (at least until the eventual reintegration with the union).
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
I wonder how minstrelsy will develop; it was one of the most popular forms of American entertainment well into the 20th Century, and preceded jazz as "the American art form."

Hrmm...I could see minstrelsy surviving on either side of the border, but Northern ones may very well turn more sympathetic (the evils of slavery/the Rebs!) while Southern ones become even more noxious.
 
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Likely jazz culture and almost all of black culture in the United States gets butterflied away. One thing I've always wondered is how a USA without a Great Migration would develop? Would it just develop slower economically or would more immigrants be brought over from Europe or Asia for the labor? That could have pretty significant effects.
I don't think Jazz would be butterflied away. After all, an existing CSA provides even more reason for Blacks to go North. And Jazz has a very old history and it isn't so directly tied up with the south that it wouldn't become an important musical movement.

I wonder if the semi-Romanticism of Southern plantation culture would still occur in the North if the CSA is still a potential enemy.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
I wonder if the semi-Romanticism of Southern plantation culture would still occur in the North if the CSA is still a potential enemy.
Probably not, which is why I think there will be some major diversions in the minstrelsy. I could see "Uncle Tom's Cabin" becoming a really popular minstrel show up North.
 

d32123

Banned
I don't think Jazz would be butterflied away. After all, an existing CSA provides even more reason for Blacks to go North..
I'm pretty sure the USA wouldn't allow blacks to come up north if the CSA had won, especially since most of them would still be slaves (or essentially slaves) and it's not like they were coming up by droves before the Civil War. Traveling into the USA would be even harder now with a border that likely stops any Underground Railroads.
 
I'm pretty sure the USA wouldn't allow blacks to come up north if the CSA had won, especially since most of them would still be slaves (or essentially slaves) and it's not like they were coming up by droves before the Civil War. Traveling into the USA would be even harder now with a border that likely stops any Underground Railroads.
It would be a long border. You get into the Indian territory or Texas, you could probably slip across.
 
I'm pretty sure the USA wouldn't allow blacks to come up north if the CSA had won, especially since most of them would still be slaves (or essentially slaves) and it's not like they were coming up by droves before the Civil War. Traveling into the USA would be even harder now with a border that likely stops any Underground Railroads.
Why, slaves will still want to leave and there will still be abolitionists helping them and as the CSA is another country the fugitive slave law no longer applies, and the remaining union states with slavery will be abolishing with the decade, so free territory is literally right across the border
 
All the blacks that served with the Union in the Civil war would also get to be repatriated in the North. It really doesn't take much to start up Jazz either, it's likely it might be changed. Perhaps more Klezmer influences, or eastern European music has more of an impact on it.

Ragtime music would probably still exist as well.
 
i like how everyone automatically assumes that in the confederacy, black people will forever be slaves...

weve being over this...slavery was not viable forever in the csa, and eventually you would see emancipation, a civil rights movement, and black culture becoming the "forbidden fruit of the south" til its widely regarded as part of the culture...itd be slower, but itd still happen
 
i like how everyone automatically assumes that in the confederacy, black people will forever be slaves...

weve being over this...slavery was not viable forever in the csa, and eventually you would see emancipation, a civil rights movement, and black culture becoming the "forbidden fruit of the south" til its widely regarded as part of the culture...itd be slower, but itd still happen
I agree, there were already freeborn blacks in the CSA the institution wouldn't last forever.
 
i like how everyone automatically assumes that in the confederacy, black people will forever be slaves...

weve being over this...slavery was not viable forever in the csa, and eventually you would see emancipation, a civil rights movement, and black culture becoming the "forbidden fruit of the south" til its widely regarded as part of the culture...itd be slower, but itd still happen
I agree, I just assume it lingers on till the US eventual gets fed up with the collapsing nation to its south and invades.
 
Not forever, but another 90 years is certainly possible until the cotton fields can be mechanized.
That's a debate for another thread. I've seen that argued many times here, I don't really know if even 90 years is sustainable.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
USA/CSA have different sports. Even if there happens to be baseball in both nations, the rules will be made intentionally different. With the south staying rule, I could see a horse based sport such as Polo being real popular in the CSA.

I could see the two languages diverging into separate dialects. For example if France/England helped the USA, I could see the USA importing German words and the CSA using words from French/Latin. Little things like the USA has the Luffewaffe/U-boats and CSA has an airforce/submarines. By 2010, I could see 10% of the words being different in the two dialects. And also on spelling, maybe the CSA uses English spelling for honour. USA spelling might start to drift back towards the German routes, maybe do some of the first and second German consonant drift. You board you schiff to fish type things.

The CSA would want to emphasis the differences culturally, to less then chance of the USA making a second try at winning them back. So lots of little difference. One on Metric, one on imperial. One on narrow gauge rail, one on wide. CSA makes you take classes in French/UK literature. USA only teaches American, Greek, and German literature. One would be lose on the censorship of nudity of movies, one would be strict. CSA listens to French composers of classical music, USA listens to Italian. CSA emphasis art from Northern renaissance period and classical Rome, USA does French impressionism. One side will stop building its government building in the existing Greco-Roman style.
 
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