The Phantom has been described as "Proof of the triumph of thrust over aerodynamics."
Crusaders not Phantoms
- Thread starter Peg Leg Pom
- Start date
The Phantom has been described as "Proof of the triumph of thrust over aerodynamics."
Archibald
Banned
How about that. The Etendard IV was supposed to be a light fighter while the Bucc' is TSR-2 class strike bomber, yet it happened.
quick Wikipedia search shows that the buccaneer folded most of its wings while the Etendard IV just folded the wingtips. Plus the bucc' also folded the radome and the aerobrake on the rear. It wasn't a plane but origami
The Etendard IV didn't folded much because it wasn't a naval aircraft from inception. Back in 1957 it was to be a lightweight, transonic fighter to complete the Mirage III at low and medium altitudes. A competitor to the Fiat G.91 or a French Folland Gnat.
I guess they hadn't hear of armored engineers ? Did they have "daisy cutters back then"?
No, the Starfighter at least looks aerodynamic- in fact very much so. The Phantom looks like a flying brick.
The Thud had a thrust/weight of 0.74, the Phantom 0.86. Well... according to Wikipedia, so I'm not sure what sort of loads those are calculated for. Anyone know? Plus the Thud doesn't look as bricklike as the Phantom, which is the point of the quote.
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I'm not sure I agree with that. The ultimate aircraft shouldn't do this when it lands, and shouldn't need another aircraft to carry it to altitude. X15 was a missile with a man in it.
Sorry to answer a quote of your with a quote of mine, but this is something I found ages ago.
This list isn't complete, it doesn't have the USN C7, the US cat on the Brazilian Minas Gerias or the 145' BS4A on the Hermes and Victorious.
You may be interested in this. These are the folded wingspans for most of the American, British and French fixed wing fighters and attack aircraft in service in the 1960s.How about that. The Etendard IV was supposed to be a light fighter while the Bucc' is TSR-2 class strike bomber, yet it happened.
quick Wikipedia search shows that the buccaneer folded most of its wings while the Etendard IV just folded the wingtips. Plus the bucc' also folded the radome and the aerobrake on the rear. It wasn't a plane but origami
The Etendard IV didn't folded much because it wasn't a naval aircraft from inception. Back in 1957 it was to be a lightweight, transonic fighter to complete the Mirage III at low and medium altitudes. A competitor to the Fiat G.91 or a French Folland Gnat.
13ft 4in (4.04m) Sea Hawk
19ft 11in (6.07m) Buccaneer
20ft 6in (6.25m) Scimitar
22ft 3in (6.78m) Sea Vixen
22ft 6in (6.86m) F-8E Crusader
23ft 0in (7.02m) Sea Venom FAW Mk 21
23ft 0in (7.02m) Sud-Est Aquilon (Sea Venom built under licence in France)
23ft 0in (7.02m) Sea Venom FAW Mk 22
23ft 9in (7.24m) A-7A Corsair II
25ft 2in (7.67m) EA-6A Intruder
25ft 2in (7.67m) A-6A Intruder
25ft 7in (7.80m) Etendard IVM
27ft 5in (8.36m) A-4C/E Skyhawk
27ft 7in (8.39m) F-4B Phantom II
42ft 0in (12.80m) A-5 Vigilante
19ft 11in (6.07m) Buccaneer
20ft 6in (6.25m) Scimitar
22ft 3in (6.78m) Sea Vixen
22ft 6in (6.86m) F-8E Crusader
23ft 0in (7.02m) Sea Venom FAW Mk 21
23ft 0in (7.02m) Sud-Est Aquilon (Sea Venom built under licence in France)
23ft 0in (7.02m) Sea Venom FAW Mk 22
23ft 9in (7.24m) A-7A Corsair II
25ft 2in (7.67m) EA-6A Intruder
25ft 2in (7.67m) A-6A Intruder
25ft 7in (7.80m) Etendard IVM
27ft 5in (8.36m) A-4C/E Skyhawk
27ft 7in (8.39m) F-4B Phantom II
42ft 0in (12.80m) A-5 Vigilante
The sources of the above is Jane's All the World's Aircraft (usually the 1964-65 Edition).
Also for ASW, AEW and Cod
19ft 11in (6.07m) Gannet Mks 1 & 4
19ft 11in (6.07m) Gannet AEW Mk 3
22ft 11in (7.00m) Alize
23ft 0in (7.00m) Short Seamew
27ft 4iin (8.33m) S-2D Tracker
27ft 4iin (8.33m) E-1A Tracer
29ft 4in (8.94m) E-2A Hawkeye
29ft 4in (8.94m) C-2A Greyhound
19ft 11in (6.07m) Gannet AEW Mk 3
22ft 11in (7.00m) Alize
23ft 0in (7.00m) Short Seamew
27ft 4iin (8.33m) S-2D Tracker
27ft 4iin (8.33m) E-1A Tracer
29ft 4in (8.94m) E-2A Hawkeye
29ft 4in (8.94m) C-2A Greyhound
Cryhavoc101
Donor
To be fair to the Starfighter that was mainly due to German Pilots transitioning from relatively low powered jets (F84 and F86) to a supersonic one which had a much higher stall speed and higher landing speeds - over its lifetime it was no more likely statistically to crash than any other jet of that era. Its just a lot of crashes happened earlier on. This resulted in an Improved training program resulting in higher quality pilots which in turn reduced the loss rate.
GunsCarsGuitars
Banned
Allegedly, the glide ratio of the Phantom was exactly one-half the distance to the nearest airfield.
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You've got me thinking about this, its fascinating stuff for an aviation geek like me and a real driver for procurement decisions in the real world.
The Buccaneer had boundary layer control, high speed air blasted out of slots at the front of the wing to energise the air over the top and create much more lift than the size of the wing would suggest, as well as blown flaps. RN F4Ks also had bleed air on the front of their wings unlike USN Phantoms and increased power to their blown flaps compared to USN Phantoms, it was this bleed air that also drove the requirement for the Spey engine and allowed RN Phantoms to use the short 151' BS5 catapult in the right wind conditions.
In contrast the French F8(FN) and J model Crusader had only trailing edge blown flaps, which was one key reason the F8E(FN) hit the deck at 126kt rather than 141kt of early USN Crusaders.
Here is a RAAF Phantoms blowing the overnight moisture out of the blow flap ducting.
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In June 1965 the first of Britain's Crusaders is rolled out. There will be several months testing before it is handed over to the British and a number of modifications will have to be made to it and the aircraft on the production line but it generally meets expectations. Because of the fact it includes elements of the Crusader III proposal the people working on it have begun calling it the two and a half, it's a name that will stick to it throughout its service life.
Plans for Ark Royals rebuild to match that of Eagle are changed to include a thorough overhaul of her machinery which is known to have problems caused by the length of time she was laid up incomplete. This change is brought about because of questions about the viability of the CVA01 project raised by its own designers. It is thought prudent to extend the projected service life of Ark Royal incase the CVA01 project fails. A visiting US Admiral on being briefed about the design had been less than complementary about it. He is reported to have called it a disaster of a ship and a liability to any fleet that had to rely on it. Robert McNamara passed on the report he received about the design to Dennis Healy. When the option of Britain taking and converting the two unconverted Essex Class ships instead is raised the answer is a polite no thanks.
Number 12 squadron Strike Command transitions to Buccaneer S1 bombers that had been replaced by S2s. They find that these are as much limited by their underpowered engines on land as the Navy had found them at sea, but they are sufficient to familiarise themselves with the Buccaneer until the newer S2 is available. The Air Marshals are still not happy about being forced to accept an aircraft built for the navy and there are a number of leaks to the press complaining about the choice damaging national security. There are also a number of premature retirements of senior RAF Officers suspected of supplying the leaks.
The 5th Resolution Class SSBN is canceled.
Hawker Siddeley are asked to produce version of the Buccaneer for the RAF that would include as much of the avionics technology developed for the canceled TSR2 as possible, but to the disappointment of both the company and the RAF supersonic performance is not required.
Plans for Ark Royals rebuild to match that of Eagle are changed to include a thorough overhaul of her machinery which is known to have problems caused by the length of time she was laid up incomplete. This change is brought about because of questions about the viability of the CVA01 project raised by its own designers. It is thought prudent to extend the projected service life of Ark Royal incase the CVA01 project fails. A visiting US Admiral on being briefed about the design had been less than complementary about it. He is reported to have called it a disaster of a ship and a liability to any fleet that had to rely on it. Robert McNamara passed on the report he received about the design to Dennis Healy. When the option of Britain taking and converting the two unconverted Essex Class ships instead is raised the answer is a polite no thanks.
Number 12 squadron Strike Command transitions to Buccaneer S1 bombers that had been replaced by S2s. They find that these are as much limited by their underpowered engines on land as the Navy had found them at sea, but they are sufficient to familiarise themselves with the Buccaneer until the newer S2 is available. The Air Marshals are still not happy about being forced to accept an aircraft built for the navy and there are a number of leaks to the press complaining about the choice damaging national security. There are also a number of premature retirements of senior RAF Officers suspected of supplying the leaks.
The 5th Resolution Class SSBN is canceled.
Hawker Siddeley are asked to produce version of the Buccaneer for the RAF that would include as much of the avionics technology developed for the canceled TSR2 as possible, but to the disappointment of both the company and the RAF supersonic performance is not required.
In December 1965 the first squadron's worth of Britain's Crusaders are delivered to the US Naval Air Station Pensacola where Royal Navy personnel will begin training in their use and maintenance before joining HMS Centaur when her refit is complete in March 1966. Following the use of Crusaders in bombing missions by the USN as well as their normal fighter role it has been decided that when Centaur recommissions she will not carry any Buccaneers but instead will carry an airgroup of 14 Crusaders, 4 Gannet AEW3s, 1 Gannet CoD 6 Wessex ASW helicopters and 1 Wessex SAR helicopter. When worked up she will be compared to HMS Hermes to see whether this airgroup is easier to operate than Hermes's mix of by Crusaders (single seat on loan from USN) and Buccaneers. Whichever airgroup proves most efficient will be adopted for both ships. It is felt for now that HMS Victorious being larger than the two Centaur class will be able to operate both types without difficulty.
Just as a matter of interest the Centaur never operated Buccaneer, it decommissioned in 1965 just as the S2 was entering service and I think the S1 was not powerful enough to use the Centaur catapults.
The Centaur's BS4C could get 35,000lbs to 99kt and the French F8E(FN) with blown flaps with much more droop touched down at 126kts, so the Centaur will need to find some 27kts of wind and forward speed.