Croats = Catholic Serbs

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Wow that is very interesting. So basically Serbs were considered to live in all of Dalmatia??

Also in terms of the Croats, do you know what the difference would be between the Sloveno Croats and the Serbo Croats? Is that referring to Stokavian and Kajkavian speaking Croats?

Well, there is an map showing the nationalities of the austrian Monarchy according to the statistics I have posted. The map has a table on it where these statistics are depicted, but the 378.676 inhabitants of Dalmatia are in the croatian column which is a bit confusing.
Basically the inhabitants of the dalmatian islands and the coastal strip between Zadar and Split would be Croats (chakavian speakers).

The Sloveno Croats are kajakavian speakers, while the term Serbo Croats stands for chakavian speakers. I don'T know why they chose the term "Serbo Croats" but it becomes clearer if you look at the present distribution of the chakavian language (original croatian language) which almost completely surrounded by the shtokavian language.

500px-Croatia_Dialects_Cakavian.svg.png


In the book Ethnographie der Oesterreichischen monarchie, Band 1, Karl Czoernig describes the exact border between the Serbo Croats (chakavian) and Serbs (shokavians), maybe I'll translate the relevant part:
books

 
Yeah well i'm Serbian and I'd agree that most Macedonians were probably Bulgarian before being absorbed into Serbia
I was talking more about the Torlak dialect, which is considered Serbian in Serbian, Bulgarian in Bulgarian (I don't know what they consider it in Macedonia) and is really transitional between the two.
 
Eastern Herzegovian is not a synonym for the ijekavian subdialect, it's one of the ijekavian subdialects - most of the dialects in Croatia and Bosnia are ijekavian.
Also, eastern Herzegovinian is spoken by all three ethnicities and in fact forms the basis of the literary language of all three.

It is a synonym because the speakers of the ijekavian dialect in the Krajina region have migrated there from Herzegovina/Montenegro.
 
I don't think you can really include Bulgarian and Slovenian in the same language. While there is a dialect continuum, there is little mutual intelligibility between most dialects of Bulgarian and BCS (Bosnian, Serbian and Croatian) and the grammar and phonology is quite different. Similarly there doesn't seem to be mutual intelligibility between Slovenian and BCS, except perhaps Kajkavian (though fairly there is low mutual ineligibility between the various Slovenian dialects). Meanwhile if one looks to BCS and most specifically Štokavian there seems to be little difference across a very large territory.

That is why I put maybe infront of Bulgarian due to the difference of the official language.

Croatian Kajkavian speaches are mutualy intelligible with Slovenian Kajkavian speaches which they border so get situations where a Croatian Kajkavian speaker can better understand a Slovenian and vice versa than they can understand another Croatian or Slovenian kajkavian speaker their speach doesn't border or is even remote from.

Štokavian does show less variation and is more homogenous due to the last 100+ years of organised schooling that helped geographicaly distant speaches (maybe I should use the term subdialects) become more streamlined but even today a Štokavian speakers at geographicaly opposite ends of the dialect distribution would have dificulty understanding each other. The Štokavian dialect had a bonus since most of the migrations of the Štokavian speakers to other parts of happened from Herzegovina and Montenegro. There is a research from 1987/8 I believe that stated 60% of Croats in Yugoslavia had at least one of its ancestors in the last 3 generations coming from Herzegovina and 60% of Serbs had at least one of thier ancetors in the last 3 generation coming from Montenegro (1914 borders). And most of those migration happened into areas that were also Štokavian further helping the streamlining of the dialect.



Of course, its probably foolish to divide a language only on the basis of a single word (or a single vowel) but isn't it a fact that the dialects which are usually referred to as Čakavian and Kajkavian have only limited mutual ineligibility with Štokavian, with Kajkavian being closer to Slovenian?

The thing with the entire SSLG is that people understand their neighbours the best no matter what word they use for question "what" or what "jat" expression they are using. As they go further from their home mutual intelligibility decreeses to the point where comunication could be done easier with another language.

So a Slovenian on the Austrian border will understand a Slovenian in the middle but will have dificulty understanding the Slovenian living on the Croatian border and will have great difficulty understanding the Croat living on the Slovenian border etc...once you reach eastern Serbia, the Slovenian from the begining of the story might more easily communicate with the Austrian just over the border than that Serb.

The north-south gradient is even more pronounced. Experiments were made with people in Međimurje and people from the island of Vis. These people were unable to speak to each other in their native sub-dialect. The Čakavian subdialects are especially notorious for not being mutual intelligibile while at the same time understanding the Štokavian speakers they border.

There was a reason why Latin was used as the language of corepondence in the Croatian sabor, that was the only way everybody understood each other :D
 
Well, there is an map showing the nationalities of the austrian Monarchy according to the statistics I have posted. The map has a table on it where these statistics are depicted, but the 378.676 inhabitants of Dalmatia are in the croatian column which is a bit confusing.
Basically the inhabitants of the dalmatian islands and the coastal strip between Zadar and Split would be Croats (chakavian speakers).

The Sloveno Croats are kajakavian speakers, while the term Serbo Croats stands for chakavian speakers. I don'T know why they chose the term "Serbo Croats" but it becomes clearer if you look at the present distribution of the chakavian language (original croatian language) which almost completely surrounded by the shtokavian language.
So apparently he considered Chakavian Serbo-Croat despite that it's not spoken by any Serbs, while Shtokavian is lumped up into Serbian, despite it being spoken by Croats as well? That's confusing.
 
To be honest, it's easier to have Serbs consider themselves Orthodox Croats.

I think that would most likely be harder. First, because there is almost twice the number of Serbs than there is Croats, or if we want to be technical, there is twice the number of Orthodox Stokavian speakers than Catholic Stokavian speakers. And if all the Orthodox consider themselves Serbs, it be difficult to get them to accept a different name spoken by fewer people.

Also if you look at the national movements, it was always the larger nation taking the lead in unifying the smaller ones. Czechs took the leading in uniting the Slovaks, and Russians took the lead in championoing Pan-Slavism.
 
So apparently he considered Chakavian Serbo-Croat despite that it's not spoken by any Serbs, while Shtokavian is lumped up into Serbian, despite it being spoken by Croats as well? That's confusing.

At that time catholic Shtokavians weren't counted as Croats.
 
Now to get back to Croatian identity. The first recorded mention of an individual (that is not a noble) stating for himself that he is a Croat (what ever that ment for him) comes from early 17th century from the region called Vinodol, south of Rijeka/Fiume. At the moment I do not remember the name of the person and the book is at the university library but he was a so called glagolitic priest. These were the priest that conduced the mass in the local language (rather than latin) and wrote in glagolitic script rather than latin script. The second and third mention come also from the same region and than spread to the venetain controled islands of Krk and Cres. It is important that this early indentification is quite probably connceted with the distribution of glagolitic priest in the region. By the late 17th century the coast is firmly aware of their Croat identity and some people in the inland centres such as Zagreb, Karlovac and Varazdin also start identifying themselves as Croats. The identity of the nobility was never in question since their political position came out of indentify themselves as Croats, though to many it was a supreficial name used for political gains.

That is very interesting. Here's how I understand it. The Medieval language of Croatia and Croats was the Cakavian dialect. Hungary absorbed Croatia in 1102, however due to the Pacta Conventa the Croatian nobility retained certain rights and therefore preserved the Croatian language continued with Cakavian. What changed was when the Turks came to the Balkans and defeated Croatia/Hungary a the battle of Mohacs in 1557 (i think?) after that both Hungary and Croatia were absorbed into Habsburg Austria. However the defeat by Hungary/Croatia to the Croats and the expansion of the Turks on the Croatian territory in the Balkans led to a huge flight in the population of Croats North into Austria and West into neighbornig Venice where the last remnants of the Cakavian language were preserved in places like Istria and the coastal islands under Venetian control. However, when the Habsburgs absborbed Hungary and Croatia they transferred the Croat nobility to the Westernmost parts of the Empire in today's Zagreb/Varazdin/Krizevci district. Here the Croat nobility then imposed a Croatian identity on the majority Kajkavian (Slovene) speakers of the area. That is why in the 19th century you found Cakavian and Kajkavian speakers who, despite speaking two varying dialects, one Slovenian and one Croatian, nevertheless both identified as Croats.

This theory has a couple of assumptions. First, it assumes that the language of the elite in medieval Croatia and the language of the everyday peasantry was one in the same: Cakavian. We know that the documents of medieval Croatia were written in the Cakavian lnaguage which may suggest that the kingdom's inhabitants spoke the same lanugage, but this is not necessarily a given. Secondly, it assumes that today's Slovenes were originally descedants of Czechs and Slovaks and a part of Great Moravia, until the Hungarian invasion of the Pannonian plane divided the Northern Slavs, Czechs and Slovaks from their southern counterparts Slovenes.

Note* it would be interesting for anyone who has knowledge of linguistics to determine how closely related Slovene is to Czech and Slovak. I'm Serbo-Croatian and can say that I find Slovene very difficult to understand and wouldn't say I understand it any better than Czech and Slovak. So maybe it be interesting to see whether Slovene is closer to Czech or Slovak than it is to Serbian/Croatian.


An alternative theory, is that language of the elites in medieval Croatia was not in fact identical to the language of the local inhabitants. This theory rejects the notion that Slovenes are descedants of Czechs and Slovaks. Instead it argues that while the elite language may have been Cakavian in medieval Croatia, the language of the everyday inhabitants was actually more akin to today's Kajkavian. When the Turks invaded Croatia and the constant Turkish wars in the Balkans in the 15th 16th and 17th centuries caused the majority of Croats to flee toward neighboring Austria in the mountainous regions of today's Slovenia to seek refuge from the Turks. So the people that today consider themselves Slovene are in fact the real descedants of Croats who migrated North into Habsurg Austria after Hungary/Croatia were absorbed into the Ottoman Empire

I find this theory very interesting, because we know for instance with the Serbian population that it was concentrated much further South in today's Macedonia and Kosovo in the middle ages yet the expansion of the Ottomans caused a huge northern migration of Serbs to areas that are today Vojvodina, Bosnia, Dalmatia Slavonia etc. So if we know that Serbs migrated North to flee the Ottomans and spread the Stokavian language onto these new areas, it is entirely possible that Croats did the same and migrated north into areas of today's Slovenia escaping the Turks. We also know that the language of the elites in medieval Serbia "staro-srpski" has changed and was not spoken by Serbs by the 19th century who spoke Stokavian. The same could have happened to the Croats, where their medieval language was cakavian but after centuries the language evolved into Kajkavian.

A good way to settle this is to determine whether today's Slovenian/Kajkavian language is closer to Cakavian as a language or closer to Czech/Slovak. If Slovenian is closer to Czechoslovak that would imply support for the first theory while if Slovenian is closer to Cakavian than that could imply support for the second theory
 
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The Shtokavian Language is divided into 3 main subdialects: Ijekavian, Ikavian and Ekavian, maybe you've meant that.
Yes, but my point was that Eastern Herzegovinian is just one of the Shtokavian dialects that are Ijekavian. East Bosnian and Zeta–South Sandžak also are Ijekavian, at least according to Wikipedia, so calling Eastern Herzegovinian the Ijekavian dialect seems incorrect.
 
Note* it would be interesting for anyone who has knowledge of linguistics to determine how closely related Slovene is to Czech and Slovak. I'm Serbo-Croatian and can say that I find Slovene very difficult to understand and wouldn't say I understand it any better than Czech and Slovak. So maybe it be interesting to see whether Slovene is closer to Czech or Slovak than it is to Serbian/Croatian
I've heard that Slovakian and Slovenian are considered somewhat similar, at least based on anecdotal experience. I think this was discussed in these two threads of a language forum. I'm not quite sure what actual linguist think about this, though it would make sense that they would be similar as they were probably in contact before the Hungarians moved between them.
 
...

Note* it would be interesting for anyone who has knowledge of linguistics to determine how closely related Slovene is to Czech and Slovak. I'm Serbo-Croatian and can say that I find Slovene very difficult to understand and wouldn't say I understand it any better than Czech and Slovak. So maybe it be interesting to see whether Slovene is closer to Czech or Slovak than it is to Serbian/Croatian

About the Croatian medieval language, most that we know is thanks to the dalmatian towns not the nobility, I can't remember at the moment of a noblemen's document earlier than 15th century that is not in latin.

I understand Slovenians along the border(near Zagreb and those from Ljubljana to the point where more than simple conversation can be maintained. Slovenian is part of the greater Slavic Gradient where Czech and Slovak are closer to south slavic languages than Polish or Kashubian, but Slovenian is part of our group.

Also saying that Chakavian is a Croatian language and that people spoke that language were Croats in medevial time what would you call the potentially existing Serb population in todays Lika in medieval times speaking Chakavian or the potentially existing Croat population in Duklja speaking Štokavian?

Ones language does not make an identity, it is a mix of many things of which closenes of language is just one of things.
 
I've heard that Slovakian and Slovenian are considered somewhat similar, at least based on anecdotal experience. I think this was discussed in these two threads of a language forum. I'm not quite sure what actual linguist think about this, though it would make sense that they would be similar as they were probably in contact before the Hungarians moved between them.

When I was in Nitra and Bratislava I could get around using Croatian especialy when diging up some archaic words are verb forms, so it is not that hard. But when I visited some got forsaken villages in central Bosnia I though I was on Tibet :D
 
That is very interesting. Here's how I understand it. The Medieval language of Croatia and Croats was the Cakavian dialect. Hungary absorbed Croatia in 1102, however due to the Pacta Conventa the Croatian nobility retained certain rights and therefore preserved the Croatian language continued with Cakavian. What changed was when the Turks came to the Balkans and defeated Croatia/Hungary a the battle of Mohacs in 1557 (i think?) after that both Hungary and Croatia were absorbed into Habsburg Austria. However the defeat by Hungary/Croatia to the Croats and the expansion of the Turks on the Croatian territory in the Balkans led to a huge flight in the population of Croats North into Austria and West into neighbornig Venice where the last remnants of the Cakavian language were preserved in places like Istria and the coastal islands under Venetian control. However, when the Habsburgs absborbed Hungary and Croatia they transferred the Croat nobility to the Westernmost parts of the Empire in today's Zagreb/Varazdin/Krizevci district. Here the Croat nobility then imposed a Croatian identity on the majority Kajkavian (Slovene) speakers of the area. That is why in the 19th century you found Cakavian and Kajkavian speakers who, despite speaking two varying dialects, one Slovenian and one Croatian, nevertheless both identified as Croats.

This theory has a couple of assumptions. First, it assumes that the language of the elite in medieval Croatia and the language of the everyday peasantry was one in the same: Cakavian. We know that the documents of medieval Croatia were written in the Cakavian lnaguage which may suggest that the kingdom's inhabitants spoke the same lanugage, but this is not necessarily a given. Secondly, it assumes that today's Slovenes were originally descedants of Czechs and Slovaks and a part of Great Moravia, until the Hungarian invasion of the Pannonian plane divided the Northern Slavs, Czechs and Slovaks from their southern counterparts Slovenes.

Note* it would be interesting for anyone who has knowledge of linguistics to determine how closely related Slovene is to Czech and Slovak. I'm Serbo-Croatian and can say that I find Slovene very difficult to understand and wouldn't say I understand it any better than Czech and Slovak. So maybe it be interesting to see whether Slovene is closer to Czech or Slovak than it is to Serbian/Croatian

The first paragraph you wrote is totally right, the same is also stated by Adolf Ficker, in his book "Österreichs Bevölkerung" (Austrias population):
Austrias Population A. Ficker

books


(Sorry for the German quotations, I would translate them all but I haven't the time to do that.)

Regarding your question, Slovene is far away of being understandable by Czechs. I speak Czech very, very well and if I would not speak BosnianMontenegrinCroatianSerbian too (or however this language is called today :D), I would certainly not understand Slovenian. My personal impression is, that Slovenian is a West Slavic language with heavy South Slavic influence. Here is an interesting paper about it: http://www.korenine.si/zborniki/zbornik07/jandacek07.pdf

Yes, but my point was that Eastern Herzegovinian is just one of the Shtokavian dialects that are Ijekavian. East Bosnian and Zeta–South Sandžak also are Ijekavian, at least according to Wikipedia, so calling Eastern Herzegovinian the Ijekavian dialect seems incorrect.

You're right, but eastern Herzegovinian is still the dominant dialect so the term can eventually be misused to name the Ijekavian dialect.
 
When I was in Nitra and Bratislava I could get around using Croatian especialy when diging up some archaic words are verb forms, so it is not that hard. But when I visited some got forsaken villages in central Bosnia I though I was on Tibet :D
Well, if the need is severe enough, a Slavic speaker could probably get pretty around almost any other Slavic country by using basic expressions and nonverbal language;) I was traveling once with my family in the Czech Republic, and we were able to get directions once we became lost by asking questions in Bulgarian. Then again we couldn't find our way for several hours with those directions...
 
Well the 'Greater Serbian' argument is that the majority of Croats (i.e. Stokavian Croats excluding Kajkavian and Cakavian speaking Croats) are Roman Catholic Serbs. Basically one has to accept the 19th century notion of European nationalism that a nation is defined by the language its people speak. When you look at the Balkans, you then see that all Serbs speak Stokavian, which then implies that Stokavian is the Serbian language. And since language is what defines a nation, then all Stokavian speakers, regardless of whether they are Catholic or Muslim are then taken to be Serbs

If language were truly what defines a nation, then Germany was fully justified in carrying out the Anschluss (not to mention the annexations of Czech territory with German population) and would have been as well justified in annexing Holland, France should annex Wallonia, there would be still a British empire, at least including all North America and Australia/New Zealand. I could go on, but I believe I made my point.
Your beliefs are nothing but a justification of Serbian nationalism.
 
If language were truly what defines a nation, then Germany was fully justified in carrying out the Anschluss (not to mention the annexations of Czech territory with German population) and would have been as well justified in annexing Holland, France should annex Wallonia, there would be still a British empire, at least including all North America and Australia/New Zealand. I could go on, but I believe I made my point.
Your beliefs are nothing but a justification of Serbian nationalism.

If I may play devil's advocate for a moment... I don't think yugo91aesop has ever once said on this thread that he personally abides by the 19th century attitude that "language = nation"... I'm also pretty sure that the purpose of this thread is merely to hypothesize about a "what if?" scenario in which the aforementioned attitude does in fact become prevalent among Serbo-Croatian speakers of the Štokavian dialect; he is wondering if it was possible for Vuk Karadžić's implication that "all Štokavian speakers are Serbs" could have actually taken effect. For you to decry a "what if?" scenario (concerning an admittedly volatile matter, granted) as an attempted "justification of Serbian nationalism" or "Greater Serbia apologetics" seems a bit far-fetched given the refreshingly civilized tone of the discussion so far.
 
About the Croatian medieval language, most that we know is thanks to the dalmatian towns not the nobility, I can't remember at the moment of a noblemen's document earlier than 15th century that is not in latin.

I understand Slovenians along the border(near Zagreb and those from Ljubljana to the point where more than simple conversation can be maintained. Slovenian is part of the greater Slavic Gradient where Czech and Slovak are closer to south slavic languages than Polish or Kashubian, but Slovenian is part of our group.

Also saying that Chakavian is a Croatian language and that people spoke that language were Croats in medevial time what would you call the potentially existing Serb population in todays Lika in medieval times speaking Chakavian or the potentially existing Croat population in Duklja speaking Štokavian?

Ones language does not make an identity, it is a mix of many things of which closenes of language is just one of things.
Actually, Silesian and Ukrainian are also close to South Slavic languages as well.
 
Well the 'Greater Serbian' argument is that the majority of Croats (i.e. Stokavian Croats excluding Kajkavian and Cakavian speaking Croats) are Roman Catholic Serbs. Basically one has to accept the 19th century notion of European nationalism that a nation is defined by the language its people speak. When you look at the Balkans, you then see that all Serbs speak Stokavian, which then implies that Stokavian is the Serbian language. And since language is what defines a nation, then all Stokavian speakers, regardless of whether they are Catholic or Muslim are then taken to be Serbs

If I may play devil's advocate for a moment... I don't think yugo91aesop has ever once said on this thread that he personally abides by the 19th century attitude that "language = nation"... I'm also pretty sure that the purpose of this thread is merely to hypothesize about a "what if?" scenario in which the aforementioned attitude does in fact become prevalent among Serbo-Croatian speakers of the Štokavian dialect; he is wondering if it was possible for Vuk Karadžić's implication that "all Štokavian speakers are Serbs" could have actually taken effect. For you to decry a "what if?" scenario (concerning an admittedly volatile matter, granted) as an attempted "justification of Serbian nationalism" or "Greater Serbia apologetics" seems a bit far-fetched given the refreshingly civilized tone of the discussion so far.

Maybe. To me it looks like a very tenuous fig leaf: see the bolded portion of his quote.
 
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