Crimson Banners Fly: The Rise of the American Left

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moopli

Maybe it's just me being Canadian, but I've been mildly dreading seeing the course of the war go in the direction you've been painting, I've even caught myself hoping that somehow the entente could pull through a little, but hey, it's interesting and plausible and I'm here for it. Great update, and same with the previous one which I neglected to comment on - I'm really curious what the state of the British-dominion relationships will be after the war, with Canada obviously as the greatest divergence. Victory has a way of papering over the tensions caused by the wartime demands of the motherland, and we've obviously seen the trouble that Canada's in, but as Canada's the only dominion I'm familiar with in this period, I can't really speculate about what trouble there might be elsewhere.

Also, what might Europe look like postwar? I don't know what terms Germany might demand, (though I don't think Germany knew either), and I don't see any way a victorious Hungary would be content to continued Austrian domination, and then the most interesting question imo, whither France?
 
Tjakari

Tjakari

moopli said:
I don't know what terms Germany might demand
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Colonial concessions. Schleswig. (I think the British still control that island, or maybe I'm just crazy)
Naval reductions.
Maybe even troop reductions?
Dismantling of fortifications?
Reparations of course.
Some diplomatic guarantees to stay out of Eastern Affairs? This entire headache started because all of Europe got involved in a Balkan dispute. No alliances with the Russians, Slavs, etc.

Not that they wouldn't be able to get around that just by negotiating in secret, but it at least gets them on paper.

Depending on how bold they are, they might take a little bit from Belgium.

Most of their territorial gains are going to be eastward, so their appetite for territory in Western Europe isn't going to be high. I don't think anyway.
 

CountDVB

Tjakari said:
Or demand a cut of the profits. (Maybe I'm thinking too conservatively, but anything too over the top feels like Kaiserreich)
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Might as well take the whole thing. Belgium ain’t doing much good with it and with the Kongo, Germany can connect coast to coast of their empire
 
Part 7: Chapter XXIV - Page 159
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    • PyroTheFox

    PyroTheFox

    poincare.png

    French President Raymond Poincaré, c. 1913 - Source: Wiki Commons​

    French Prime Minister Aristide Briand was forced to resign in the direct aftermath of the mutinies, taking the fall for the heated controversy. This sidestepped the demand to end hostilities, and led to the short tenure of Briand's replacement, Alexandre Ribot. The latter's frank refusal to shift the course of the war or delve into matters of reorganizing military command led to the start of the aforementioned protests and work stoppages in Marseille and Paris. Ribot too resigned in shambles in the heat of the moment, taking with him the entire ministry. The moniker of French prime minister soon fell to Raoul Péret, a lawyer and financial reform advocate, who immediately attracted controversy with news of his insistence to hold the line on the Western Front and retain the employment of Petain and Nivelle.

    Demonstrations endured in the streets of Paris. Labor unions professed continuous opposition to the war, accompanying a dramatic resurgence of the French Left. Anarchists and pacifists, as well as feminists and anti-imperialists, joined in the ranks of a revitalized peace movement. Together, they fought against the interests of the state and military establishment. Rallies were initially small, with only about a thousand attendees marching against the war. When the news of Verdun reached the French public, there had been an awakening, of sorts, against the central government. Nevertheless, crowds fluctuated between February and November of 1917, and it was not until Russia's formal exit did the Parisian protests grow unmanageable for the administration. A second, worker-driven revolution was astounding to the people of France, as was the Eastern Front ceasefire.

    Giant banners waved with pictures of Karl Marx and Jean Jarues, the assassinated leader of the French Section of the Workers' International (SFIO). Sympathy strikers poured into the streets all across the country as a collective determination to end hostilities reached a perceptible apex. Members of the French Army began throwing down their weapons on the front in numbers far surpassing that of the winter mutiny. Conservative estimates place the total number of mutineers in the French ranks (exclusive to those in active service on the front) to about one-third of all divisions. On November 20th, General Pétain's entire staff resigned at once. Péret and Poincaré were stumped and terrified.

    After these crises, from waves of soldiers disobeying orders to the demonstrations in French cities numbering in the millions, it was extraordinarily clear that the present government was unfit to carry out its duties. November 27th saw the sun set on the tenures of Péret and Poincaré as each, finally, admitted defeat. This historic event, which culminated in the complete collapse of the French Third Republic, provoked wild celebrations. Crowds outside of the Elysee Palace were ecstatic. At last, the merciless killing would come to a close. This peaceful changeover of the government allowed for the stark rise of the SFIO: The social democratic/socialist party at the forefront of the rallies. Legislative party leader Ludovic-Oscar Frossard rose to the position of president. Upon taking office during this provisional period, he demanded an immediate ceasefire and issued a sweeping pardon for all mutineers.

    December was an unexpected endpoint to the World War, but without France or Russia at her side, the United Kingdom could do little else but declare a ceasefire on all fronts. Nationalist revolts in Quebec sparked serious trouble on the domestic front for Canada, a nation struggling to keep rifles in the hands of its fledgling, undertrained Army. Lloyd George released a statement expressing his wish for a peace summit, and lettered President Roosevelt of this decision at once.

    Millions of lives changed forever in December of 1917, and millions more had their destinies twisted in new and strange directions. [...] In the United States, the president gleefully accepted the idea of an armistice. Britain waving the white flag practically guaranteed, to the U.S., an opportune peace summit. A bright future awaited the nation, Roosevelt presumed. An end to the calamity, one that removes Russia and France from the equation altogether, relieved the president more than all else. He was, at first, tickled by the idea of a childish Bolshevik government reigning in the East, and naturally viewed its collapse as inevitable. "More the better," he wrote. It would teach homegrown Socialists the impossibility of carrying out their "imbecilic" ideology.​
    Brian Steel, Foreign Relations: A Summary of War, Peace, and Everything In-Between, 2015​
     
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    • Tjakari

    Tjakari

    Well well well, if that doesn't put a smile on my face I don't know what will. Either would have been great, but both France and Russia have gone varying shades of red.

    I don't know what the character of the French parties are like at this time, but if nothing else, the way they took power should have consequences for their demeanor going into the Interwar (Post-war?) Period.

    It should also affect the Bolsheviks' outlook on pursuing the revolution abroad.

    If the French are at least a friendly neutral going forward, the British have no practical presence on the continent, and the US is unbothered by a revolution on the other side of the world, things can get interesting on the periphery.
     

    Deleted member 143777

    Tjakari said:
    I don't know what the character of the French parties are like at this time, but if nothing else, the way they took power should have consequences for their demeanor going into the Interwar (Post-war?) Period.
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    They were one of the 2nd Internationale parties that famously...um...totally stuck to their commitment to internationalism, so I'm not sure the Bolsheviks will look that kindly upon them. Things could get more radical though--this is France after all. Sadly it doesn't seem like there'll be an Alt!Spartakist uprising given that the Germans are victorious, but we'll have to see how things develop (Italy was, after all, a victor, albeit a "mutilated" one, and yet the Biennio Rosso still happened).
     

    moopli

    Tjakari said:
    the US is unbothered by a revolution on the other side of the world
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    I doubt they will remain unbothered for long - sure, they'll be happy at first that a rival has fallen to bolshevism, they'll change their tune once they realize that the Soviets are consolidating. But then, the biggest loss to American interests is the loss of access to the Russian market for industrial investment, which wasn't that large before anyway, and would certainly have been dramatically damaged by the recent state of war, even if Czarist Russia survived.

    Now we get to see America get indigestion from (I imagine) gobbling up part of Canada, which I'm excited for. As for France, I agree - the new government having been ushered in by widespread mutiny and strikes will change their frame of reference, shifting opinions and likely deligitimizing those who advocate more for electoralism than revolution. What's really interesting then is that a French socialist government, even if revolutionarily-minded, would be very different from the Soviets, due to different material conditions and differences in ideology. No vanguardism to be seen in France, for example! Instead you have the ferment of national sector unions, regional unions, various alliances of unions, various splinters of socialist movements, all going back and forth between splintering and uniting in solidarity. The current alignment of much of the left with the SFIO would split OTL on the question of alignment with Moscow, but that was in the context of a socialist party in the political wilderness after electoral defeat - with it instead brought to power by strike and mutiny, bringing down a government that led France to military humiliation, it's going to be interesting to see what they do if they're not faced with the question of being put in a subordinate role to Russia, but instead carry forward the historical Franco-Russian alignment into a socialist phase. Of course, much is still up in the air, with the peace yet to be dictated, and the French right licking its wounds but no doubt to be rebuilding its strength to oppose the wholesale imposition of socialism.

    I've often wondered how socialism would have evolved if it hadn't first consolidated in Russia, with the attendant focus on industrial five-year plans, political commissars in unreliable institutions, and institutional history of heavy use of secret police. Syndicalism alone will be an interesting difference, if it has the opportunity to impose itself to any degree anyway.
     

    LordPez

    A SFIO government surviving to interact with (and hopefully moderate the authoritarian aspects of) the Soviet Union will lead to a very different interwar period. The problem is that I fully expect this victory to be made into a bitter chalice for France after the socialist government is blamed for the economic downturn after losing the war with Germany.
     
    Tjakari

    Tjakari

    the Milquetoast said:
    Sadly it doesn't seem like there'll be an Alt!Spartakist uprising given that the Germans are victorious, but we'll have to see how things develop
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    moopli said:
    As for France, I agree - the new government having been ushered in by widespread mutiny and strikes will change their frame of reference, shifting opinions and likely deligitimizing those who advocate more for electoralism than revolution.
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    Funnily enough, I would think that this situation would embolden the electoralists. Now the reformists? Those I'd agree would be on the descent, but the revolutionary argument for electoral politics just got the greatest affirmation it'll ever have.
    Once the French state was sufficiently compromised, the party was able to step in and assume control of it. That's gonna textbook in this TL.

    And I think that example could make left politics in Germany very interesting.
     

    Mechadogzilla

    Over the past few days I binged this TL, one of the best I've ever read. Unique PoD, unique developments, and (hopefully) a cathartic ending.

    Eagerly awaiting more.
     

    tukaram bhakt

    Banned
    Tjakari said:
    One can only hope.
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    Not to mention a more chaotic end to the war having ripples in the british isles, too!
    The way the french reds and pinks took power seems a lot more palatable for a british audience, and the french folks being the ones responsible for finally bringing the boys home might garner some sympathy among troops and families.

    I also wonder what would the usa do in face of that.
     

    Teutonic_Thrash

    the Milquetoast said:
    Sadly it doesn't seem like there'll be an Alt!Spartakist uprising given that the Germans are victorious, but we'll have to see how things develop (Italy was, after all, a victor, albeit a "mutilated" one, and yet the Biennio Rosso still happened).
    Click to expand...
    The public discontent against over half a million dead of starvation and an authoritarian military government aren't going to dissipate any time soon, even with a German victory.
    LordPez said:
    hopefully moderate the authoritarian aspects of) the Soviet Union
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    We're still at the end of 1917 where Soviet Russia is still a nascent socialist democracy governed by a coalition of Bolsheviks and Left SRs. With the war in the west effectively being done, the Left SRs might not try to derail the Brest-Litovsk (or TTL's equivalent) negotiations and so remain in the coalition government. As you say though, there being a socialist(ish) western European power that is friendly to the Soviets is going to have a major influence on the latter's domestic politics.

    The SFIO leading a government in the immediate post-war period (assuming they can withstand reactionary opposition) is going to have a major impact on international socialism. After all, OTL a large majority of the party supported joining the Comintern and split to form the PCF-SFIC; I can see the reverse happening ITTL with the reformists being expelled and the SFIO joining the Comintern (depending of course on what happens in France, Russia, and elsewhere in Europe, especially Germany).
     
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