Crimean Russia?

The Crimean Khanate was extremely successful against Russia up till the Battle of Molodi. Could this defeat be adverted and put the region under Muslim Control Again? Could the Ottoman and Crimean Plans of a Don-Volga Canal and the Conquest of Astrakhan and Kazan be completed?

What would be the effects on other states in the region? Would Sweden and Poland-Lithuania take there slice of Russia? What would happen to Siberia and Turkestan?
 
The Crimean Khanate was extremely successful against Russia up till the Battle of Molodi. Could this defeat be adverted and put the region under Muslim Control Again? Could the Ottoman and Crimean Plans of a Don-Volga Canal and the Conquest of Astrakhan and Kazan be completed?

What would be the effects on other states in the region? Would Sweden and Poland-Lithuania take there slice of Russia? What would happen to Siberia and Turkestan?

More like a reunion of successor Khanates into the Golden Horde again. Heck, it'd even be cooler if the Crimean Khanate would rediscover their skills that made the old Golden Horde what it was.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
More like a reunion of successor Khanates into the Golden Horde again. Heck, it'd even be cooler if the Crimean Khanate would rediscover their skills that made the old Golden Horde what it was.
You mean playing Rus' princes off of one another and using particularly strong ones as their tax collectors?

Sorry, but the entrenchment of autocratic tsarism under Ivan Grozny obliterates that possibility.

Besides, the Golden Horde was more or less politically independent; any Islamic Crimean state is likely going to wind up just what it was IOTL; an Ottoman vassal.
 
You mean playing Rus' princes off of one another and using particularly strong ones as their tax collectors?

Sorry, but the entrenchment of autocratic tsarism under Ivan Grozny obliterates that possibility.

Besides, the Golden Horde was more or less politically independent; any Islamic Crimean state is likely going to wind up just what it was IOTL; an Ottoman vassal.

Yeah, so practically the birth of Crimean Russia is suffocated.
 
Besides, the Golden Horde was more or less politically independent; any Islamic Crimean state is likely going to wind up just what it was IOTL; an Ottoman vassal.

The Crimean Khanate was an Ottoman Vassal in 1478, this series of events occurs 94 Years Later, in 1572.

The Ottomans want the Crimea to conquer and remake the golden Horde, its why the Khanate exists.
 
The Crimean Khanate was an Ottoman Vassal in 1478, this series of events occurs 94 Years Later, in 1572.

The Ottomans want the Crimea to conquer and remake the golden Horde, its why the Khanate exists.

Wouldn't the Ottomans basically shoot themselves in the foot if they asked their vassals to remake the Golden Horde in case they might turn against their masters if they got stronger?
 
Even if they would unite back in Golden Horde vol. 2 they would still be brought down by Russia just by watching the population ratio and the distance as factors.

I remember 2 things that I read that'd helped Russia conquer Kazan in the long run; Ivan Temny or Vasily II., don't remember which, have organized big annual fairs just on the edge of their territory with Kazan in the effort to erode its meaning as a trade hub. And Ivan Grozny in the end had to build a giant military camp that resembled to a mobile wooden city that helped him in traversing the big supply distance between Moscow and Kazan in order to conquer it.

My point in the end is that even if they managed to get their marbles together and became a "stable" nomad confederacy ( first in history ) their peripheral areas such as described Kazan would still be chipped away in given time.

And poor Ottos would start their downward spiral even sooner if they tried to support the Khanates in any meaningful way. Just imagine how overstretched they would be.
 
Wouldn't the Ottomans basically shoot themselves in the foot if they asked their vassals to remake the Golden Horde in case they might turn against their masters if they got stronger?

The Ottomans said that it was more of an "Ally" than a "Vassal" and was being paid for the excellent Calvary. A Successful Khanate if better for both nations then a weak one.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
The Ottomans said that it was more of an "Ally" than a "Vassal" and was being paid for the excellent Calvary. A Successful Khanate if better for both nations then a weak one.
The more successful the Crimean Khanate, the more the Porte is going to meddle in its affairs; and the Sultans were never shy about pulling rank what with their being caliphs.

This isn't the Barbary states, far away on the periphery of the Sultanate, this is at the very heart of the Ottoman SoI, and just a short boat ride away from Konstantiniyye.
 
My point in the end is that even if they managed to get their marbles together and became a "stable" nomad confederacy ( first in history ) their peripheral areas such as described Kazan would still be chipped away in given time.

And poor Ottos would start their downward spiral even sooner if they tried to support the Khanates in any meaningful way. Just imagine how overstretched they would be.

1. Poland and Sweden are going to go after Russia. Both States were pro-Ottoman and would destroy the remains of the state. Why would the Khanate be a Confederacy? It was a Monarchy.

2. Explain a little bit more, because the Khanate would not need support. The Ottomans would actually to better with a powerful Crimea.


The more successful the Crimean Khanate, the more the Porte is going to meddle in its affairs; and the Sultans were never shy about pulling rank what with their being caliphs.

This isn't the Barbary states, far away on the periphery of the Sultanate, this is at the very heart of the Ottoman SoI, and just a short boat ride away from Konstantiniyye.

The Ottomans were already "meddling in Crimean affairs" the Khan was appointed by the Sultan, there were plans to build a Don-Volga Canal, and the Khan`s army was using Ottoman Artillery and Janissaries.
 
2. Explain a little bit more, because the Khanate would not need support. The Ottomans would actually to better with a powerful Crimea.

I was thinking of the Ottoman reactions that happened when Kazan and Astrakhan were conquered. They were especially angry after Astrakhan and were threatening military action, and that at the same time when they were waging war with the Safavids. Also they had to have their eyes on Austria and East Mediterranean, all which was very resource consuming.
 
If there was a whole bunch of PODs I could actually imagine 'Crimean Russia'.
(In OTL even Ivan the Terrible once run away like a rabbit from Moscow burned by Crimean tartars.)

The main POD should be a military and political genius in Crimea. Something like Mongolian Genghis Khan or better Manchu Nurhaci (1559-1626).

If Nurhaci managed to start conquering China having united 'wild' Manchu people we could easily imagine some Crimean tartar guy doing something like that with Russia on the other side of Eurasian continent. :)

Of course first of all this 'Crimean Nurhaci' would have to unite most of tartar Khanates which would mean recreation of Golden Horde.

And quite naturally this 'Crimean Napoleon' would not be a Turkey's puppet.

He might be wise enough not to defy the authority of the Istanbul (at least openly).
And the Turkey's sultan might be realistic and try to use this new situation to his benefit - having a new and powerful ally in the North would give him an opportunity to strengthen Turkish empire on other fronts.

And all in all I would give this new 'Great Crimean Golden Turkish Horde' :) from 30 to 100 years. Why not?
Imo Russia got rid of tartar yoke not because Russia had become stronger. It was because Golden Horde became weaker (fell apart).

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The Khanate did contain some excellent land,trade and wealth. And it's cavalry was feared across Europe. They conducted raids in Poland and Moscovy so one cannot doubt their power.
 
Of course first of all this 'Crimean Nurhaci' would have to unite most of tartar Khanates which would mean recreation of Golden Horde.

Devlet I Giray, from what I have read, was a very good ruler, probably good enough to be the "Crimean Nurhaci".

Here are the Tatar Khanates in 1572:

Crimean Khanate
Siberian Khanate
Nogai Horde
Astrakhan Khanate(Destroyed, 1556)
Kazan Khanate(Destroyed, 1559)
Qasim Khanate(Russian Vassal)

Another way for Crimea to conquer Russia would be a more solid alliance with the Tatar States in 1521, which would Doom Russia half a century earlier than the POD.
 
Devlet I Giray, from what I have read, was a very good ruler, probably good enough to be the "Crimean Nurhaci".
Well, as they say - 'good enough is not good enough':)

If he had been that good he would have united all tartars and conquered Russia and good half of Poland and Lithuania in OTL.
 
Well, as they say - 'good enough is not good enough':)

If he had been that good he would have united all tartars and conquered Russia and good half of Poland and Lithuania in OTL.

Okay, so Nurhaci > Devlet I Giray.

But what would of happened in the already given circustances?
 
Okay, so Nurhaci > Devlet I Giray.

But what would of happened in the already given circustances?

:)I don't want to upset you, but the tartars were doomed to be conquered by the Russians unless... well, I already mentioned the needed PODs in my previous posts in this thread.
 
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