Create a country with More Native American influence that exists on USA/Canada territory.

NiGHTS

So, is a country with heavy Native American influence able to exist in the present day USA and or Canadian territories? If it is possible your challenge is to create it.
The rules are
  1. The nation must be descended from a European colony(s). But, it can have laws and structure inspired by natives like democracy being based on a native democracy.
  2. The majority of people must have a combination of European and indigenous ancestry. They can of course have mostly fair skin due to immigrants from Europe "whitening " them as the native ancestry is deluded. But, when Europeans/Asians think of the alt Americans, they must think of them being stereotypically tanned or darker than Northern Europeans, but easily confused for Arabs/Indians/Southern Europeans. The average person can say they are 1/64th Native and be factually correct.
  3. This nation can't have been a former Iberian colony.
  4. A European language must be a lingua franca amongst the people of this alt USA. On the east coast, it's basically the only language, but further inland people are bilingual with a native language. No Spanish or Portuguese, but they can be minority languages.
  5. The POD is 1492. It doesn't just have to effect the European countries that you choose to be the source of the colony, but it can also affect the Reformation and the Native Americans themselves, like one of the groups becoming sedentary instead of nomadic.
  6. The colony(s) must become independent, before 1823. It can become independent as early as 1600s.
  7. The colony(s) can be founded as early as 1500s.
  8. They can take time with their alt manifest destiny ,but it must be completed by 2016. No ethnic cleansing.
  9. Maximum size is OTL USA, Canada, all of the carribean, Bahamas. Minimum is OTL USA, minus Hawaii and Alaska.
  10. African slaves must be brought to the South. Freedom must be before 1900.
  11. Doesn't have to be superpower, but must begin industrialization before 1900.
  12. Minimum population is 100 million.
  13. Must be democracy. Must be a federation.
  14. Civil war and balkanization is acceptable, but you have to justify it. Eventual reintegration is required by 2016.
Be creative and have fun.
 

Deleted member 93645

Vinland.

Or Vinland technology gets to the proto-Iroquois, the Iroquois conquer the other tribes in the United States, and receives European immigration in the 1800s/1900s.
 

NiGHTS

Alligator said:
Vinland.

Or Vinland technology gets to the proto-Iroquois, the Iroquois conquer the other tribes in the United States, and receives European immigration in the 1800s/1900s.
Click to expand...
What's the language in Vinland and how early is it established?
 

NiGHTS

Alligator said:
In that case have New Netherlands survive, and Dutch-French colonial power assimilates the natives instead of pushing them off their land.
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Sounds good, how long does it take to reach OTL USA size minus Hawaii and Alaska? If it can.
 

telynk

I definitely think this is possible, although probably requires an early POD (between 1492 and 1550) and an elaborate time line.

This is largely what I'm trying to do with my TL Donnacona's Dream, although it doesn't fit all the criteria (i.e. the lingua franca will be a Native language, and result will be a regional state in the St. Lawrence and Great Lakes rather than a USA-sized state, the majority of the population will be mixed with majority Native blood, no African slaves)

But the recipe is something like:
1. have a lost explorer or failed colony between 1492 and 1550 introduce European tech and ideas to the Natives.
2. wank the Natives in the region for about 100 years before successful settler colonies arrive in their region. This means:
- ~ 10 times increase in population
- some European diseases become endemic
- the above two combined need a HUGE increase in birthrates and agricultural productivity. I think it's possible with European tech and European ideas, but others may think not... in which case, give them more than 100 years
- awareness of Europeans and their methods of trade and warfare. knowledge of at least rudimentary methods of countering European conquest
3. Europeans arrive and form settler colonies around 1650 or so. These colonies grow and prosper. They ally with the Natives wanked in step 2 against other European colonizers.
4. Between 1750 and 1800 the European colonizers engage in warfare against their colonial masters. They recruit the help of the Natives in doing so. At this point, the Natives need to be powerful enough to be BOTH a military threat to any attempt by colonial masters to reassert control AS WELL AS about equal in population to the colonizers. The equal in population is actually probably the harder of the two, which is why the early POD is necessary to increase birthrates, etc.
5. The Natives and independent ex-colony grow closer over time and eventually merge to create a single federation with an ethnically mixed population.

To be honest, I think this challenge is a lot less interesting than one which would create a resulting state that would look a lot LESS like the USA (e.g. what I'm doing with Donnacona's Dream), but I understand (but don't share) the desire to have a recognizable result.
 

NiGHTS

telynk said:
I definitely think this is possible, although probably requires an early POD (between 1492 and 1550) and an elaborate time line.

This is largely what I'm trying to do with my TL Donnacona's Dream, although it doesn't fit all the criteria (i.e. the lingua franca will be a Native language, and result will be a regional state in the St. Lawrence and Great Lakes rather than a USA-sized state, the majority of the population will be mixed with majority Native blood, no African slaves)

But the recipe is something like:
1. have a lost explorer or failed colony between 1492 and 1550 introduce European tech and ideas to the Natives.
2. wank the Natives in the region for about 100 years before successful settler colonies arrive in their region. This means:
- ~ 10 times increase in population
- some European diseases become endemic
- the above two combined need a HUGE increase in birthrates and agricultural productivity. I think it's possible with European tech and European ideas, but others may think not... in which case, give them more than 100 years
- awareness of Europeans and their methods of trade and warfare. knowledge of at least rudimentary methods of countering European conquest
3. Europeans arrive and form settler colonies around 1650 or so. These colonies grow and prosper. They ally with the Natives wanked in step 2 against other European colonizers.
4. Between 1750 and 1800 the European colonizers engage in warfare against their colonial masters. They recruit the help of the Natives in doing so. At this point, the Natives need to be powerful enough to be BOTH a military threat to any attempt by colonial masters to reassert control AS WELL AS about equal in population to the colonizers. The equal in population is actually probably the harder of the two, which is why the early POD is necessary to increase birthrates, etc.
5. The Natives and independent ex-colony grow closer over time and eventually merge to create a single federation with an ethnically mixed population.

To be honest, I think this challenge is a lot less interesting than one which would create a resulting state that would look a lot LESS like the USA (e.g. what I'm doing with Donnacona's Dream), but I understand (but don't share) the desire to have a recognizable result.
Click to expand...
Sounds great!!!! I will be watching and reading your timeline.
 

Deleted member 93645

WalterWilliams said:
Sounds good, how long does it take to reach OTL USA size minus Hawaii and Alaska? If it can.
Click to expand...
If the Netherlands remains rich and powerful and conquers/buys Louisiana from France, perhaps the end of the 18th century, since native tribes would be assimilated as settlers. However there would be no real infrastructure or settlement in the west until about the time the OTL USA settled those areas, and it would remain theoretical land claims for longer due to a lower population.
 

NiGHTS

Alligator said:
If the Netherlands remains rich and powerful and conquers/buys Louisiana from France, perhaps the end of the 18th century, since native tribes would be assimilated as settlers. However there would be no real infrastructure or settlement in the west until about the time the OTL USA settled those areas, and it would remain theoretical land claims for longer due to a lower population.
Click to expand...
That's great, and I assume that they will be speaking Dutch. Care to come up with a name for this nation?
 

Deleted member 93645

WalterWilliams said:
That's great, and I assume that they will be speaking Dutch. Care to come up with a name for this nation?
Click to expand...
With all likelihood, it would continue to be called New Netherlands, or even the West India Company if it remains company ruled. But if they rebel violently against the Netherlands like the US did against England, they might rename themselves something like Belgium/Belgica, Batavia, Frisia, or just America.
 

My Daichingtala

telynk said:
some European diseases become endemic
Click to expand...
The population density of North America north of Mesoamerica did not allow for the worst epidemic diseases, like smallpox or measles, to become endemic. For smallpox you need an interactive population of 100,000 to 200,000, of whom 7,000 (children) must always be susceptible to the virus. There were very few, if any, interactive populations of 100,000 to 200,000 in the Americas north of the Mesoamerican cultural sphere. The Pueblos as a whole numbered 220,000 in 1500 even with the highest academic estimates, and they were scattered in dozens of independent towns across an immense area. The Five Nations of the Iroquois numbered more than 20,000 before the epidemics, but that would not have been nearly enough for disease to become endemic. For measles you need an ever larger population base.

This is why the Mongols were regularly devastated by smallpox despite being in close contact with the Chinese ever since their nation existed.
 

NiGHTS

My Daichingtala said:
The population density of North America north of Mesoamerica did not allow for the worst epidemic diseases, like smallpox or measles, to become endemic. For smallpox you need an interactive population of 100,000 to 200,000, of whom 7,000 (children) must always be susceptible to the virus. There were very few, if any, interactive populations of 100,000 to 200,000 in the Americas north of the Mesoamerican cultural sphere. The Pueblos as a whole numbered 220,000 in 1500 even with the highest academic estimates, and they were scattered in dozens of independent towns across an immense area. The Five Nations of the Iroquois numbered more than 20,000 before the epidemics, but that would not have been nearly enough for disease to become endemic. For measles you need an ever larger population base.

This is why the Mongols were regularly devastated by smallpox despite being in close contact with the Chinese ever since their nation existed.
Click to expand...
Could this be an issue?
 

NiGHTS

Alligator said:
With all likelihood, it would continue to be called New Netherlands, or even the West India Company if it remains company ruled. But if they rebel violently against the Netherlands like the US did against England, they might rename themselves something like Belgium/Belgica, Batavia, Frisia, or just America.
Click to expand...
I really like the idea of a United Netherlands with OTL Belgium and an alt USA that calls itself Belgica
 

telynk

My Daichingtala said:
The population density of North America north of Mesoamerica did not allow for the worst epidemic diseases, like smallpox or measles, to become endemic. For smallpox you need an interactive population of 100,000 to 200,000, of whom 7,000 (children) must always be susceptible to the virus. There were very few, if any, interactive populations of 100,000 to 200,000 in the Americas north of the Mesoamerican cultural sphere. The Pueblos as a whole numbered 220,000 in 1500 even with the highest academic estimates, and they were scattered in dozens of independent towns across an immense area. The Five Nations of the Iroquois numbered more than 20,000 before the epidemics, but that would not have been nearly enough for disease to become endemic. For measles you need an ever larger population base.

This is why the Mongols were regularly devastated by smallpox despite being in close contact with the Chinese ever since their nation existed.
Click to expand...

That was (partly) the reason for the 10 times increase in population. There were lots of interactive populations of 10 000 to 20 000, which through higher birthrates, could expand to the point that diseases become endemic. I know the societal change for this to occur requires a whole bunch of unlikely events to take place, which is why I called it a 'wank'.
 

Petros >Peter Fergus<

My Daichingtala said:
The population density of North America north of Mesoamerica did not allow for the worst epidemic diseases, like smallpox or measles, to become endemic. For smallpox you need an interactive population of 100,000 to 200,000, of whom 7,000 (children) must always be susceptible to the virus. There were very few, if any, interactive populations of 100,000 to 200,000 in the Americas north of the Mesoamerican cultural sphere. The Pueblos as a whole numbered 220,000 in 1500 even with the highest academic estimates, and they were scattered in dozens of independent towns across an immense area. The Five Nations of the Iroquois numbered more than 20,000 before the epidemics, but that would not have been nearly enough for disease to become endemic. For measles you need an ever larger population base.

This is why the Mongols were regularly devastated by smallpox despite being in close contact with the Chinese ever since their nation existed.
Click to expand...

We shouldn't forget the Mississippi Mound Builders. They didn't survive the first wave of infection intact, but they had a large enough population to sustain smallpox... I mean, had they not suffered such massive losses in the first wave. In many ways, the North American natives that the later colonists encountered were the 'Mad Max' remnants of earlier, more sophisticated societies. Plenty of famous tribes only developed following colonization.
 
Planet of Hats

Planet of Hats

Donor
Wait awhile after the Reconquista before Europeans discover the New World. Set it up so that your first contacts are more spearheaded by merchant traders and less liable to pick up thousands of Reconquista veterans with no Moors immediately at hand to beat up on.
 

Arkenfolm

It's not possible at that POD, because there was never the population density to sustain such levels of race-mixing and keeping of indigenous culture north of Mexico. The one exception being New Mexico.

You need to find a way to save the Mississippians, and by 1492 they were on the decline thanks to the Little Ice Age's effects in North America. They were by far the most organised culture north of Mexico, and could produce a population density as well as organisation to allow for your scenario. How, though? Is there any way to do it beside alternate agriculture? But even with alternate agriculture, maybe the Eastern Agricultural Complex is more fully developed and thus is not totally abandoned?

Saving the cultures of the Southwest might come as a residual effect.

Also, I think a lot of Americans, both white and black, are 1/64 or above Indian.
 

Kerney

I know you said no Iberia. But if you look at what the Pueblos of New Mexico got vis a vis the Spanish and the level of cultural influence they have today in the state and the perception of said state, you could arguably say this is as close to a wank otl any group of natives have.
 
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