Create: A Communist bloc created in France, Germany and Spain during inter war years

I'm assuming that the Soviet Union doesn't change it's course of history, im simply using stalin as an example of totalitarialisum; if you think he won't come to power in TTL explain why. But as far as I can see stalin came to power because he ruthlessly eliminated his opposition, and the cult of personality etc not because of the economic climate. Maybe with a more liberal western communisum this wont happen :)
Okay, here's why. In 1924, you have the Soviet leadership dominating the Comintern, because they have greater practical experience and thus greater legitimacy, whereas their ideological rivals in Central and Western Europe have only theory on which to base their opposition. Furthermore, Central and Western European Communists are too busy working in their own countries to vie for the leadership of the Soviet Union (though Bordiga at one point proposed that the Comintern take over the government of the Soviet Union, this was not accepted). This essentially leads to a situation where the only plausible leadership must come from Russia, Ukraine, Central Asia, or the Caucuses.

In this situation, if you are powerful in the Bolshevik Party, you are powerful in the Soviet Union. Stalin was able to rise to the position of General Secretary because of his support among the Party functionaries, and because he was able to make and break Machiavellian alliances when he had to (Bukharin, Kamenev, Zinoviev, etc.).

The situation described in the OP, however, is radically different. Even assuming a Marxist-Syndicalist split (which, though likely, is not a given), you no longer have a situation where if you are powerful in the Bolshevik Party, you are powerful in the whole Marxist bloc. Assuming the integration of Germany and Poland into the Soviet Union, you have either three sister parties sharing power, with the Comintern as a mediary, or you have the Comintern taking power to itself and the atrophy of the national parties. Whatever happens, you're going to see a vastly increased role for the Comintern compared to OTL. IOTL, when the Comintern was essentially a creature of the Russian party, it was possible for someone who dominated the Russian party to dominate the Comintern as well. ITTL, with a more powerful Comintern and a Russian party whose claim to legitimacy is equalled by that of the German and Polish parties, this won't be the case. Stalin, for instance, was at this time not well known internationally and had virtually no involvement in the Comintern.

IOTL, Stalin was able to rise to power because the stage was small enough for him. He only had to operate in the Russian party. ITTL, you would see much greater influence in the hands of people well-known and powerful in the Comintern, including Wijnkoop, Radek, Gorter, Luxemburg (assuming she's not killed off), Zinoviev, and Trotsky.

Claro?
 
Okay, here's why. In 1924, you have the Soviet leadership dominating the Comintern, because they have greater practical experience and thus greater legitimacy, whereas their ideological rivals in Central and Western Europe have only theory on which to base their opposition. Furthermore, Central and Western European Communists are too busy working in their own countries to vie for the leadership of the Soviet Union (though Bordiga at one point proposed that the Comintern take over the government of the Soviet Union, this was not accepted). This essentially leads to a situation where the only plausible leadership must come from Russia, Ukraine, Central Asia, or the Caucuses.

In this situation, if you are powerful in the Bolshevik Party, you are powerful in the Soviet Union. Stalin was able to rise to the position of General Secretary because of his support among the Party functionaries, and because he was able to make and break Machiavellian alliances when he had to (Bukharin, Kamenev, Zinoviev, etc.).

The situation described in the OP, however, is radically different. Even assuming a Marxist-Syndicalist split (which, though likely, is not a given), you no longer have a situation where if you are powerful in the Bolshevik Party, you are powerful in the whole Marxist bloc. Assuming the integration of Germany and Poland into the Soviet Union, you have either three sister parties sharing power, with the Comintern as a mediary, or you have the Comintern taking power to itself and the atrophy of the national parties. Whatever happens, you're going to see a vastly increased role for the Comintern compared to OTL. IOTL, when the Comintern was essentially a creature of the Russian party, it was possible for someone who dominated the Russian party to dominate the Comintern as well. ITTL, with a more powerful Comintern and a Russian party whose claim to legitimacy is equalled by that of the German and Polish parties, this won't be the case. Stalin, for instance, was at this time not well known internationally and had virtually no involvement in the Comintern.

IOTL, Stalin was able to rise to power because the stage was small enough for him. He only had to operate in the Russian party. ITTL, you would see much greater influence in the hands of people well-known and powerful in the Comintern, including Wijnkoop, Radek, Gorter, Luxemburg (assuming she's not killed off), Zinoviev, and Trotsky.

Claro?

Yes
My thoughts were, that in TTL Germany, Poland and the baltic states arent incorperated into the Soviet Union or even come under Soviet influence. The split in communist ideas means that comintern becomes more of a formality in foriegn relations and exercises little to no power. Therefore climate perfect for Stalin takeover, you could well see the Western communists backing Trotsky and there being a split in the Soviet Union; who knows?
 
Yes
My thoughts were, that in TTL Germany, Poland and the baltic states arent incorperated into the Soviet Union or even come under Soviet influence.
And here's where we part ways. There is absolutely no reason for the Polish and German communist states not to incorporate themselves into the Soviet Union (formed 1922, so pre-Stalin). The only reason for them to do so would be to ensure the political isolation of Russia, something in which they have absolutely no interest whatsoever; as I explained, in the late 1910s-early 1920s, a German-Polish-Russian communist union leads to the political domination of the Germans. Hence it is in the German Communists' interests to federate with Poland and Russia. There's also the Western Allies (essentially the British) to consider. Dissolving Germany as a sovereign entity means that they can skirt the Versailles restrictions on military buildup, and thus develop a stronger position to resist Western-imported counter-revolution.
 
Take into account that unless there are specificaly defined butterflies Poland is still a neo-conservative state. The German people have always had that 'taste of wealth' which can so effectivly bring down a communist regime, so it would be in their intrest to swing into a more western communist bloc.
 
* Do they continue to expand across Europe, ie in Poland.
From your very own OP. My supposition is that yes, a Communist Russia and a Communist Germany very quickly yield a Communist Poland, something that practically everyone at the time supposed.

The German people have always had that 'taste of wealth' which can so effectivly bring down a communist regime, so it would be in their intrest to swing into a more western communist bloc.
And communism magically causes the most advanced industrial economy in Europe, with one of the highest GDPs in the world, capable both of relatively equal distribution of and mass production of goods to magically disappear overnight, eh?
 
And communism magically causes the most advanced industrial economy in Europe, with one of the highest GDPs in the world, capable both of relatively equal distribution of and mass production of goods to magically disappear overnight, eh?

Exactly economicaly Germany was crippled after WW1, which is what caused communisum to flourish. But it would also start to recover after the war fairly rapidly, as you said in your OP. This means if communists were successful why would they wan't to follow what Moscow wants them to do economicaly. This means that Germany would need a different economic policy if communisum is to be successful (something along the lines of the new economic policy) which would rather fall short of what moscow wants. Also think socialy, the Germans would never accept Russian rule (unlike the poles) which means there would be no incoorperation into the Soviet Union, at best there could be a confederation (but unlikely considering what I said above). I could however envision a German-Russian spliting Poland (much like in OTL) but not any unification (at least I think thats what we are arguing over)

^^ Yes it is
And here's where we part ways. There is absolutely no reason for the Polish and German communist states not to incorporate themselves into the Soviet Union (formed 1922, so pre-Stalin). The only reason for them to do so would be to ensure the political isolation of Russia, something in which they have absolutely no interest whatsoever; as I explained, in the late 1910s-early 1920s, a German-Polish-Russian communist union leads to the political domination of the Germans. Hence it is in the German Communists' interests to federate with Poland and Russia. There's also the Western Allies (essentially the British) to consider. Dissolving Germany as a sovereign entity means that they can skirt the Versailles restrictions on military buildup, and thus develop a stronger position to resist Western-imported counter-revolution.
 
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We have discussed establishing a communist regime in Germany (that's the easy part as they had the Spartacanists)

Now how would you get a Communist regime in Spain, No german or Italian help during the civil war is a good start.

Would the new communist regime come into contact with the Soviet Union (I think it would rather have relations with Communist Germany/France if it had the chance)

Do we see the balkanisation of Spain?
Perhaps communists factions only take over certain parts of Spain

Could the civil war see communist/anarchist faction coorperating against the Republicans and Right wing elements (who wouldnt join with each other)

International Intervention could be key, with a western comintern sending troops to Spain. Spain could well be the fighting ground of France and Germany backing the Republic, Russia backing the communists and Britain and America backing the Right wing elements.
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
The problem with the Spartacists was that they had no real chance to win. The uprisig was badly planned, and even if they'd be able to take controll of Berlin, they'd be surrounded by Conservative Prussia, in other words quickly besieged. Third; they had no real armed force, it would be easy even for the crippled German army (with Freikorps) to put them down. Without soldiers; no revolution.
 

Goldstein

Banned
Now how would you get a Communist regime in Spain, No german or Italian help during the civil war is a good start.

Even assuming that, Spain could turn more easily in a form of democracy (in name only) close to socialism and ruled by an hegemonic PSOE, and I'm not sure about it belonging to an European communist bloc unless you get rid of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. the PCE was weak compared to other factions at that time, and it would take a coup against the Republic, or something like that, for the PCE to achieve power, which is very implausible given the circumstances. It would be more interesting to somehow rise the social tensions in Spain from the 1910's onwards, so the disappointment against the Second Republic is higher once it comes, and a rebellion like the 1934 revolution ultimately succeeds.

Do we see the balkanisation of Spain?
Perhaps communists factions only take over certain parts of Spain.

Insustainable and bordering ASB, sorry.
 
Even assuming that, Spain could turn more easily in a form of democracy (in name only) close to socialism and ruled by an hegemonic PSOE, and I'm not sure about it belonging to an European communist bloc unless you get rid of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.

You could well get rid of that as the Germans are going to be distancing themselves from Russia.

I don't see why the balkanisation of Spain is so unrealistic, in OTL many provinces were breaking off (Catalonia and Basque country) and several more were intrested in doing so (before the civil war broke out)

Perhaps spain in a strong confederation, dominated by trade unions and Syndicalists. Right wing elements (like Franco and the falange create a white morrocan state, which was suggested earlier for algeria) With a Senate in Madrid to discuss action for Spain as a whole and regional assembalies, the powers of each written into the constitution (similar to '31)

This kind of Spain would be viewed negativly in moscow, but why do the spanish give a fuck they are well protected by the rest of the continent!
 

Goldstein

Banned
I don't see why the balkanisation of Spain is so unrealistic, in OTL many provinces were breaking off (Catalonia and Basque country) and several more were intrested in doing so (before the civil war broke out)

It is unrealistic because any separatist attemp could be, and would be, easily crushed; and any division created by a civil-war like situation would not last long, unless heavy outer interference (ASBish at that time).

Catalonia never seceded, it tried (and failed) to constitute as a state within the Spanish Republic in 1934, and what happened with anarchism in catalonia during the civil war could only have been crushed, with every other faction being against the anarchists. Other that that, it could be argued that Barcelona was the legitimate capital of Spain for some time during the SCW. And as for the Basque Country, it stayed loyal to the Republic... maybe you're confusing their autonomy statutes with breakup attempts?

Perhaps spain in a strong confederation, dominated by trade unions and Syndicalists

Very interesting, but impossible without an earlier POD. By the interwar period, Spanish communism was staunchly centralist, and radical federalism, once strong, had been eclipsed by the rising sun of anarchism.
 
It is unrealistic because any separatist attemp could be, and would be, easily crushed; and any division created by a civil-war like situation would not last long, unless heavy outer interference (ASBish at that time).

Catalonia never seceded, it tried (and failed) to constitute as a state within the Spanish Republic in 1934, and what happened with anarchism in catalonia during the civil war could only have been crushed, with every other faction being against the anarchists. Other that that, it could be argued that Barcelona was the legitimate capital of Spain for some time during the SCW. And as for the Basque Country, it stayed loyal to the Republic... maybe you're confusing their autonomy statutes with breakup attempts?



Very interesting, but impossible without an earlier POD. By the interwar period, Spanish communism was staunchly centralist, and radical federalism, once strong, had been eclipsed by the rising sun of anarchism.

Thanks :D so what would happen to the conservative factions in Spain?
 
Pre WW1 POD

Do you think if you had a pre ww1 POD you could have a more friendly German-British relations, so when Germany invade Belgium Britain begins a naval embargo; but doesnt declare war. The French take on more responsibility = more losses = + communist influence = post war anti british feeling in France and Germany?
With Germany lossing eventualy :eek:
 

Goldstein

Banned
Thanks :D so what would happen to the conservative factions in Spain?

I guess falangism, carlism and eventually the CEDA, would be outlawed and prosecuted. Maybe some traditionalist military elements (and probably not Franco, due to butterflies) could form some kind of "Spanish State in exile". The PNV would turn against the Republic.
 
...
Outside of metropolitan France and Spain, the territories they *may* be able to hold on to are: Corsica, the Belaeric Isles, Morocco, and the Algerian coast. The Canaries and the Madeiras, Spanish Sahara, Rio Muni, French West Africa, Tunisia, Madagascar, and Indochina will either probably get snapped up by other powers or make good on their independence, simply because nobody has the force available to stop them. We could easily see an independent Vietnam and a larger Thailand, leading to fascinating consequenses in Southeast Asia.
I have a small correction to suggest: The Madeira Archipelago is Portuguese and not Spanish.:)
 
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