Crazy idea: The Prince of Conde joins the first Fronde in 1648.

maverick

Banned
Now, the first Fronde was a conflict between the Parliament and the Bourgeoisie, who rose in arms against the machinations of Cardinal Mazarin, Richelieu's successor and drove him, the Queen Regent Anne of Austria and the Nobles from Paris in 1648, barricading themselves at Paris. Luckily for Mazarin and Co., the Prince of Conde was just returning from the Spanish front at the Netherlands, victorious from the battle of Lens, thanks to the Treaty of Westphalia.

Despite Condé's scorn for the Bourgeoisie and his royal birth, he had been also been a victim of Mazarin's intrigues, who was jealous of Conde's power, riches, noble birth, popularity or whatever. In addition, the other best General in France, Turenne as well as Conde's brother, Conti.

What if Turenne had been able to go to Paris and talk to his brother, convincing him to join the Fronde against Mazarin? Now the two best Generals of France are joined with the Parliament, many nobles and the Bourgeoisie against Mazarin and half the nobility, not to mention Queen Anne.

Could this lead to a victory of the Fronde, an earlier exile of Mazarin and perhaps a Parliamentary Monarchy in France before Louis XIV reaches the Majority?
 
I'm unable to find a coherent list of demands from the first frondeurs. But basically, Conde would never deal with the frondeurs in good faith; he will accept a short-term alliance for the purpose of exiling Mazarin, smacking down Queen Anne and having himself declared Prince Regent over the child Louis XIV. Then he breaks his word, gives them nothing, and more violence ensues. Conde doesn't want royal power limited because royal power is his power, at least in his mind - he's first prince of the blood at the time.

Hmm. Giulio Mazarini on the short list to become Pope in 1655?

It's an interesting starting point. Alternatively, Conde's frondeurs could accept the calling of an Estates General, as the conservative nobles wanted. Hilarity ensues.
 

archaeogeek

Banned
What Shawn said; the decentralized/federalized feudal monarchy of the Valois would likely not have much of an appeal for him as he's on the winning side of all this, if neither Louis XIV nor Gaston d'Orléans manage to live to adulthood, the grand Condé become Louis XV. Mazarin was mostly a scapegoat for all this, and as he was less of an imposing figure than Richelieu (he was a foreigner, so he had a huge penalty to dealing with the french nobles) this led to a window of opportunity for revolt by the french magnates.
 

maverick

Banned
I'm unable to find a coherent list of demands from the first frondeurs. But basically, Conde would never deal with the frondeurs in good faith; he will accept a short-term alliance for the purpose of exiling Mazarin, smacking down Queen Anne and having himself declared Prince Regent over the child Louis XIV. Then he breaks his word, gives them nothing, and more violence ensues. Conde doesn't want royal power limited because royal power is his power, at least in his mind - he's first prince of the blood at the time.

I thought so too, but I liked the idea of the Parliament having more power early on.

I do have to wonder if a Fronde that has both Turenne and Condé on its side is effectively invincible.
 

archaeogeek

Banned
I thought so too, but I liked the idea of the Parliament having more power early on.

I do have to wonder if a Fronde that has both Turenne and Condé on its side is effectively invincible.

It likely is, the only problem is that Condé has everything to lose in the foreseeable future from it; even in 1789 the Bourbon-Condé were close enough to the throne, especially with how badly smallpox had hit the house of Bourbon in France after the reign of Louis XIV.
 
With or without Conde, it would be a dramatic change in history if the first Fronde was successful ( or partly successful).
A more or less successful Fronde meana a France that would not evolve in to an absolute monarch but more in to a kind of monarchy like England.
Most European wars would not happen or would have other reasons and results without an absolute monarch as Louis XIV.
 

Teleology

Banned
If Conde did temporarily join the Fronde and in doing so bring the best generals to the Fronde's side, likely he'd have the best trained/equipped army of the rebel forces and they might become loyal to him personally over the revolution; so he could overthrow the nobles and then crush the rebels to establish himself as an absolutist or at least centralized monarch?

I don't know a lot about this topic, didn't even know there was a rebellion in France that soon before the Revolution (soon in a relative sense); but is it possible that a stuckup noble as you are implying that Conde was would be stuck up enough to destroy the other nobles in order to become king/emperor/high-falutin-potentate and then elevate a few collaborating bourgeoisie to become the new nobility in exchange for helping him, and his - let's say - "Grand" Army, crush the rest of the bourgeoisie?


Ok, elevating bourgeoisie to nobility in order to make a completely nepotistic croneyistic nobility is not necessarily in character for a French noble.

Once its clear his star is on the ascendant I'm sure there would be plenty of actual noble croneys asking for his protection, and then he'd just get a few select bourgeoisie to sell out the parliament and become the highly paid rubber-stamps of a new, much smaller parliament.

Something like that?
 

archaeogeek

Banned
Ok, elevating bourgeoisie to nobility in order to make a completely nepotistic croneyistic nobility is not necessarily in character for a French noble.

Why? It happened fairly often. A lot of positions open to the bourgeoisie gave you nobility, leading to a higher influx of new blood in the French nobility than, say, the British "noble only if the king decrees it". In France it became often more "noble if the king recognizes it".
 
Can we get Mazarin to screw the Army in some short-sighted and foolish way? Conde may not be willing to rebel for the sake of Paris shopkeepers, but he might for his soldiers.
 

maverick

Banned
Why? It happened fairly often. A lot of positions open to the bourgeoisie gave you nobility, leading to a higher influx of new blood in the French nobility than, say, the British "noble only if the king decrees it". In France it became often more "noble if the king recognizes it".

Indeed, although I don't know if Conde would be so open to recognizing so many bourgeoisie, whom he was not particularly fond of.

Can we get Mazarin to screw the Army in some short-sighted and foolish way? Conde may not be willing to rebel for the sake of Paris shopkeepers, but he might for his soldiers.

Indeed.

A strong possibility given Mazarin's jealousy of popular military men like Condé.
 
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