Crassus and a Shortened Career

Suppose wins Marcus Licinius Crassus wins the Battle of Carrhae, or better yet his men get the better of the Parthians before they exhaust the Roman Army to that point.

He destroys 3 Parthian field formations each one larger than his own army. He storms and sacks their 4th, 5th, and 7th most populous cities, and the Romans walk away with lots of loot. Crassus impresses on the Parthian leaders, and they pay a tribute equal to triple their government's annual tax income (probably by borrowing, unlike today the government and kings made a minority of the economy, so there is wealth around the general population).

On the way back, he is betrayed by the Armenians he hired as mercenaries (I think he did in OTL? If not, say he hired them in TTL). The Romans fight another huge battle, and barely win despite not starting off in battle formation. They refuse to drop the loot and tribute and lug it back as they are harassed. In the end, 1/8 of the Legions that left for the campaign ended up returning. Most of the survivors are the cavalry rather than the heavy infantry. 3 Legion standards are lost. Crassus himself suffers a huge blow to the head during betrayal, and loses consciousness for a week. Oh, OTL Caesar had trouble with mercenaries betraying him too (due to loyalty issue not his nonpayment which would be understabadle), Alesia's relief army was led by his ex-mercs.

Crassus divides the vast majority of the looted booty among his survivors while taking a portion. He puts some of his portion to buy land in... I don't know Italia or Gaul (the Roman part) for his veterans to retire on. He keeps the rest, and the Parthian tribute. From that day on, his mind never seemed the same. He never set foot outside Roman friendly territory again, except to put down rebels (so I guess you can say he never sets foot outside nominally Roman territory again). Whenever he was hungry, his mind seemed unfocused. He focused on his businesses like a Patrician civilian, despite being one of the three military strongmen. He became a much bigger drinker, although his liver holds out. While his strength returned, his stamina never seemed to come back.

When it comes to Senate politics, Crassus reported the initial success against his target enemy followed by treachery. He spent the rest of his life resting on his laurels, rather than further ambition, except with a punitive expedition sent to Armenia... not personally led by him.. Meanwhile, he continue to influence the Senate, but it seems ever since the Parthian Campaign, he seemed increasingly in the hands of Gaius Julius Caesar, who had been focusing on Crassus since the successful Britain campaign. Crassus seemed to support Ceasar's suggestions to the Senate, even when his past ideology (optimates) would be against it. Crassus simply said he wanted to do an old friend a few favors.

Well, how do you think the Roman Republic develops. Caesar effectively has 2/3 of the triumvirate with Crassus's mind in and out, but Crassus might end up not the best pawn. While he's still the wealthiest man in Roman, his wealth can't be used by Caesar. Crassus might be influencing his own supporters to throw in their lot with Caesar, but in the eyes of the Senate Crassus has two blemishes. One, he's supporting Caesar. Two, he came back with most of his army head and lost 3 of the 7 legion standards, even if he only lost it by treachery.
 
Who is the massive battle against when he is betrayed? Having just paid him off, I can't see why the Parthians are going to be attacking him. And are the mercenaries able on their own to raise a huge army?
 
Who is the massive battle against when he is betrayed? Having just paid him off, I can't see why the Parthians are going to be attacking him. And are the mercenaries able on their own to raise a huge army?

This is order. Crassus hires Armenian Mercs. Crassus wins. Parthians pay him off. Crassus goes home. Armenians betray him. Note that OTL, Armenians mercenaries have betrayed many a few Roman generals, although not Crassus in particular (either he didn't hire them or they didn't betray him). I must not have been very specific in my OP, sorry.
 
This is order. Crassus hires Armenian Mercs. Crassus wins. Parthians pay him off. Crassus goes home. Armenians betray him. Note that OTL, Armenians mercenaries have betrayed many a few Roman generals, although not Crassus in particular (either he didn't hire them or they didn't betray him). I must not have been very specific in my OP, sorry.

I like this idea, but just need to clear this in my head to engage with what comes after

When you say the Armenians betray him, are they betraying him TO someone? Considering they are all moving away from Parthia. Or that they launch an attack on him themselves, these mercenaries, to try to get theiir hands on the loot?
 
I like this idea, but just need to clear this in my head to engage with what comes after

When you say the Armenians betray him, are they betraying him TO someone? Considering they are all moving away from Parthia. Or that they launch an attack on him themselves, these mercenaries, to try to get theiir hands on the loot?

The Romans don't know!

If I had to guess, they wanted a share of the loot. Let's say Crassus, fresh from his victory, offers to triple his mercs promised pay, but the spoils of war still go to the Romans. For whatever reason, they betray him anyways.
 
OK, so in reality Crassus was killed at Carrhae so this is both prolonging his career (he lives) but cutting it short (he is wounded, disgraced, not gonna be able to promote himself)?

But he still lives so it doesn't fall out into Caesar v Pompey so straightforwardly?
 
Well, in reality he was killed at Carrhae, so this is prolonging his career. But to the Romans, it looks like it got cut short slightly after his prime but still in having lots of time left, having suffered a humiliation at the hands of those he hired just returning fresh off a victory. The consolation is that most of the material wealth was carried away since the traitors "only" managed to kill lots of Romans before being pushed away. They way we see it, three standards lost, material wealth coming back to Rome, and Crassus alive is an improvement over SEVEN standards lost and Crassus killed, but the Romans only see Crassus wounded, disgraced, not gonna be able to promote himself.

There is a bit of a silver lining. A commander facing a pitched battle and losing is disgraced. Losing legion standards is even worse. Crassus can point out one usually does not expect mercenaries to betray their employer... so long as they get their promised pay. The agreement was (whatever money) and Romans keep the loot. Crassus tripled the offer the Armenians signed on while still claiming the spoils that he said were for Romans, so he went above and beyond 100% of his end of the bargain. This takes some of the sting away from the disgrace. Also, if they protected the baggage train (and loot inside) and forced the Armenians away (after losing much of the army and three standards) they technically won the battle by holding the camp and forcing their treacherous enemies away. OTL Carrhae was 7 legion standards and the battle lost. Isn't losing a standard in a won battle much easier to bite?

As I said, after TTL Parthian Campaign, Crassus isn't even trying to grab more influence in the Senate and simply concentrates on his civilian businesses (Rome's fire brigade, his estates...) and after Caesar's successful Britain campaign and Caesar focusing a lot of his time on Crassus, Crassus starts supporting Caesar in the Senate apparently without questions. I don't know how the Republic might develop with this. You said it doesn't fall into Caesar vs Pompey so straightforwardly and I agree. OTL Pompey (or at least his faction) ordered Caesar to disband his army, sparking the war. I think TTL Pompey realizes that this is dumb with Caesar effectively having Crassus under his thumb and trying to win over the Senate. It's an interesting series of events that could lead of many developments.
 
Suppose wins Marcus Licinius Crassus wins the Battle of Carrhae, or better yet his men get the better of the Parthians before they exhaust the Roman Army to that point.

He destroys 3 Parthian field formations each one larger than his own army. He storms and sacks their 4th, 5th, and 7th most populous cities, and the Romans walk away with lots of loot. Crassus impresses on the Parthian leaders, and they pay a tribute equal to triple their government's annual tax income (probably by borrowing, unlike today the government and kings made a minority of the economy, so there is wealth around the general population).

On the way back, he is betrayed by the Armenians he hired as mercenaries (I think he did in OTL? If not, say he hired them in TTL). The Romans fight another huge battle, and barely win despite not starting off in battle formation. They refuse to drop the loot and tribute and lug it back as they are harassed. In the end, 1/8 of the Legions that left for the campaign ended up returning. Most of the survivors are the cavalry rather than the heavy infantry. 3 Legion standards are lost. Crassus himself suffers a huge blow to the head during betrayal, and loses consciousness for a week. Oh, OTL Caesar had trouble with mercenaries betraying him too (due to loyalty issue not his nonpayment which would be understabadle), Alesia's relief army was led by his ex-mercs.

Crassus divides the vast majority of the looted booty among his survivors while taking a portion. He puts some of his portion to buy land in... I don't know Italia or Gaul (the Roman part) for his veterans to retire on. He keeps the rest, and the Parthian tribute. From that day on, his mind never seemed the same. He never set foot outside Roman friendly territory again, except to put down rebels (so I guess you can say he never sets foot outside nominally Roman territory again). Whenever he was hungry, his mind seemed unfocused. He focused on his businesses like a Patrician civilian, despite being one of the three military strongmen. He became a much bigger drinker, although his liver holds out. While his strength returned, his stamina never seemed to come back.

When it comes to Senate politics, Crassus reported the initial success against his target enemy followed by treachery. He spent the rest of his life resting on his laurels, rather than further ambition, except with a punitive expedition sent to Armenia... not personally led by him.. Meanwhile, he continue to influence the Senate, but it seems ever since the Parthian Campaign, he seemed increasingly in the hands of Gaius Julius Caesar, who had been focusing on Crassus since the successful Britain campaign. Crassus seemed to support Ceasar's suggestions to the Senate, even when his past ideology (optimates) would be against it. Crassus simply said he wanted to do an old friend a few favors.

Well, how do you think the Roman Republic develops. Caesar effectively has 2/3 of the triumvirate with Crassus's mind in and out, but Crassus might end up not the best pawn. While he's still the wealthiest man in Roman, his wealth can't be used by Caesar. Crassus might be influencing his own supporters to throw in their lot with Caesar, but in the eyes of the Senate Crassus has two blemishes. One, he's supporting Caesar. Two, he came back with most of his army head and lost 3 of the 7 legion standards, even if he only lost it by treachery.
Three times there annual income as tribute? Werent ludicrous demands like these only used as a bluff or to completely show romes power over there defeated enemies but only when the enemy had like the equivalent of 12 cannae happene to them? The richest lands of the Parthians may have been ravaged but the Parthian leadership can still go east of the zargos and continue the war from there if they want. Mesopotamia might be the economic heartland but the Iranian platue is also rich and the military heartland of the empire. They don't have to accept Crassus demands.

So only 1/8 the legions survived? That honestly worse then actual carrhae where 1/4 of the legionaries were saved by Cassius.


Um while Roman generals kept tribute from defeated peoples all the time they werent as big as 3 times as the tax revenue of romes strongest neighborhor. Most of senate would rally behind pompey, who when his eastern settlements was ratifyed turned over the tribute income to the treasurery, to give the income to the state. Especially since Crassus lost 7/8 of his army from not even the campaign it self but by mercenary betrayal while going home.
 
Triple annual tribute is MUCH more doable than you might think. In most modern nation states a government's revenue would be 50% o GDP. In Roman times, it would probably be 1-3% depending on the emperor. And Rome is one of the most centralized ancient states that existed. Since most of the economy is not in the hands of the government, if a foreigner asked for tribute of triple the annual tax income, it's possible to borrow money from nobles and plan to pay them back later somehow (hope the next decade doesn't have a bad harvest!).

As for 1/4 of them surviving in OTL. Whoops! I thought it was like 99% dead. OK, if I ever revisit this, I'll say 34.3% survive. I meant it to be less disastrous than OTL, but still looking pretty bad. So you say 1/8 surviving is actually worse? That's not what I was going for.

Losing 7 Legion standards, 3/4 of the army, and the battle is pretty bad (OTL Carrahe, although I thought it was 99%). Losing 3 and more than half has to be pretty bad, but it's some consolation the enemy was forced off the field by the survivors. What would the political ramifications be? Pomey at this time isn't doing any campaigning and Caesar was wrapping up Gaul and preparing for his second Britain expedition.
 
Triple annual tribute is MUCH more doable than you might think. In most modern nation states a government's revenue would be 50% o GDP. In Roman times, it would probably be 1-3% depending on the emperor. And Rome is one of the most centralized ancient states that existed. Since most of the economy is not in the hands of the government, if a foreigner asked for tribute of triple the annual tax income, it's possible to borrow money from nobles and plan to pay them back later somehow (hope the next decade doesn't have a bad harvest!).

As for 1/4 of them surviving in OTL. Whoops! I thought it was like 99% dead. OK, if I ever revisit this, I'll say 34.3% survive. I meant it to be less disastrous than OTL, but still looking pretty bad. So you say 1/8 surviving is actually worse? That's not what I was going for.

Losing 7 Legion standards, 3/4 of the army, and the battle is pretty bad (OTL Carrahe, although I thought it was 99%). Losing 3 and more than half has to be pretty bad, but it's some consolation the enemy was forced off the field by the survivors. What would the political ramifications be? Pomey at this time isn't doing any campaigning and Caesar was wrapping up Gaul and preparing for his second Britain expedition.
Um doesn't America and other wealthy modern countries have more well developed everything in collecting more of there countries wealth? It's technically not as bad as saying a modern nation can bring 10% of there population in there military for war so ancient nations could as well but still pretty bad. Like do you think the emperors only wanted that little of there gpd? No it was only as much as they could get without ruining the economy

Um pompey may not be campaign anymore but people have always liked him more then crassus especially if crassus does not hand over the tribute to the treasury. So with crassus broken it wouldn't be hard for pompey to kick him out of public life or worse. Also wouldn't it be the time of Alesia by then if crassus had a really good length campaign?
 
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