Cradles of Civilizations that never were ?

There's a lot of archaeological evidence showing up recently that seems to be saying the Amazon has been more advanced for far longer than has previously been thought. So, who knows, maybe an Amazon civilization is OTL.
 

archaeogeek

Banned
I think the Amazon is a great place for a complex society to develop: Huge amounts of domesticable plants, relative lack of natural disasters, great fishing grounds in huge rivers, the ability to make terra preta from waste so that the soil is more fertile than most others on Earth... It seems that, had some Amazonian leader came along and unified a large area, a strong, more developed civilization could rise out of the relatively small chiefdoms and protostates.

The Amazon could also withstand an Iberian attack if it was large and developed enough; indeed, to me it seems that the Spaniards going to nearby Tawantinsuyu only conquered the empire due to a succession crisis, without which Tawantinsuyu would not have had the Civil War (as in "Inca: The Scarlet Fringe.")

Thus, I think the Amazon is one's best choice, seconded by an earlier civilization in the Congo River basin, which, although having fewer domesticable crops, would not suffer from the disease problem, would be less isolated and would also be able to use many of the same advantages as the Amazon.

Until Malaria comes in, at least. If we could find a way to make the amazon trade with the Inca enough to introduce quinine for some reason, we could probably avert the destruction of Amazonian civilization.

Also, Terra Preta is already anthropic soil, that's one of the things that made people realize that these cultural memories may very well be indicative of something else.
 
The northwest pacific shore of North America? The natives there had a pretty complex culture based on whaling and fishing. Add a domesticate (reindeer maybe? Or tame sea mammals even?) and some crops (harder), and it could be interesting.
 
The northwest pacific shore of North America? The natives there had a pretty complex culture based on whaling and fishing. Add a domesticate (reindeer maybe? Or tame sea mammals even?) and some crops (harder), and it could be interesting.

Actually, the NW Coast is a good example of why state-level societies probably won't occur in places chocked-full of resources. The NW Coast provided people with such a variety of resources and in such profusion that labor-intensive techniques such as plant or animal domestication was not necessary to support a complex, heirarchical, society. But a true state-level "civilization" is much more than a "complex society" with social stratification and wonderful arts. NW Coast tribes never came close to become states - lacking as they did centralized political structure with a monopoly on the use of force, a permament administrative class, writing or any similarly effective record keeping technology, and so forth. With their level of development, NW Coast tribes could easily have made the transition to full state-level civilization as a result of contact and pressure from other state-level societies, but not likely from a pristine evolution. I'd wager that is also the situation in other areas with abudant resources like the Amazon basin, which is why I (along with Service, Diamond, and lots of other people) believe marginal areas are much more likely to be "cradles of civilization", and that there have been relatively few such cradles - perhaps as few as two in the whole world.
 
The northwest pacific shore of North America? The natives there had a pretty complex culture based on whaling and fishing. Add a domesticate (reindeer maybe? Or tame sea mammals even?) and some crops (harder), and it could be interesting.

The British Columbia coast is not suitable for corn (maize to you Brits:D), which is the only major staple crop to which they might have access. Besides, the people there had a good thing going, why would they change? Further south, in Washington and Oregon, it could happen (the Willamette has been mentioned). One needs to consider what crops people in any region might have access to. Oats and potatoes would work in BC, wheat in Australia, but how do they get there?
 
The northwest pacific shore of North America? The natives there had a pretty complex culture based on whaling and fishing. Add a domesticate (reindeer maybe? Or tame sea mammals even?) and some crops (harder), and it could be interesting.

Actually the Pacific Northwest wouldn't need much more than an agriculturally productive cultivar of Hemp. We already know how well it grows there :D.
They have everything else in pretty much abundance, maybe a domesticated sea otter to aid in shellfish harvest but that isn't even necessary.
Give them good hemp and the whole area takes off. Smell that? That's the smell of a good TL in the making, man... (if I had a hippy toking smiley I'd insert it)
 
How about Yemen?

It had some large cities and impressive construction projects-check out the Ma'rib Dam-and it exported incense to the Levant and the Mediterranean. However, its agriculture was fragile and relied on the Dam which needed constant repairing and maintenance, so that if there was a civil war or a slip in state revenue or control then there would be mass famine. Also, it's relatively inhospitable so populations were always lower than in the Fertile Crescent or Greece.
 
I made a mini-TL with an advanced society developing on the Crimean Peninsula. Crimea is somewhat larger than the Peloponnese and it's in a good position for controlling trade in the Black Sea and the Don and Dnieper.
 
It had some large cities and impressive construction projects-check out the Ma'rib Dam-and it exported incense to the Levant and the Mediterranean. However, its agriculture was fragile and relied on the Dam which needed constant repairing and maintenance, so that if there was a civil war or a slip in state revenue or control then there would be mass famine. Also, it's relatively inhospitable so populations were always lower than in the Fertile Crescent or Greece.

Hmm. What about Sogdiana, along the Oxus?
 
Actually the Pacific Northwest wouldn't need much more than an agriculturally productive cultivar of Hemp. We already know how well it grows there :D.
They have everything else in pretty much abundance, maybe a domesticated sea otter to aid in shellfish harvest but that isn't even necessary.
Give them good hemp and the whole area takes off. Smell that? That's the smell of a good TL in the making, man... (if I had a hippy toking smiley I'd insert it)

Hemp is, unfortunately, native to Asia.
 
The British Columbia coast is not suitable for corn (maize to you Brits:D), which is the only major staple crop to which they might have access. Besides, the people there had a good thing going, why would they change? Further south, in Washington and Oregon, it could happen (the Willamette has been mentioned). One needs to consider what crops people in any region might have access to. Oats and potatoes would work in BC, wheat in Australia, but how do they get there?

Well, if wild rice could somehow make it, that might work. So possibly could Korean or Japanese strains of rice, or millet, if some ship somehow blew off course.
 
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