CP Victory in WWI = Better World?

Susano

Banned
Last time I checked, Bretons during the 19th century were a full part of France and they happened to give to the country ministers, generals and bishops. You should also know that many Bretons (including my grandfather), were French-speaking right from the start.
Because Francification had already happened. Thats the point: Germanified Poles also were not treated any worse. But Germany pushing for Germanification, and France puching for Francification, that already is the problem and the evil. However, I Prussian and German Germanification efforts (while there and bad) have been vastly exaggerated. The point is that they were on a the same or even a lesser scale than equivalent Francification efforts in France.
 

ZeusBlade

Banned
. The point is that they were on a the same or even a lesser scale than equivalent Francification efforts in France.
So France settled hundreds of thousands of "ethnic Frenchmen" into non-Frenchmen territrories, and French writers wrote how those non-French people were filthy animals as opposed to "ethnic Frenchmen", while French PM wrote that those "non-Frenchmen" are animals to be exterminated at any cost and ordered one of the first modern [SIZE=-1]early examples of ethnic cleansing by removing tens of thousands of them ?
Sorry-doesn't ring true, but more like an attempt to portay quite viscious XIX and early XX century German racism as something common to all countries.
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Thats the point: Germanified Poles also were not treated any worse
Except the fact that Germanisation was from early on connected to settlement of ethnic Germans and removal of native population, and more to complete eradication of culture that was treated with contempt, rather then merging into a unique cultural new form out of two different cultures.
 
Last time I checked, Bretons during the 19th century were a full part of France and they happened to give to the country ministers, generals and bishops. You should also know that many Bretons (including my grandfather),p/ were French-speaking right from the start.

Is your grandfather 300 years old? The Francification of Brittany (and other parts of France) is well attested. See, e.g. Peasants into Frenchmen.

Now could you remind us what the British did to the Aborigenes, the Germans to the Herreros, the Italians in Cyrenaica, the Dutch in Java... please ?

So in other words the Germans had as much potential for evil as the other nations of Europe? I'm glad we agree. :)

But a stat that at least tries to respect all its cultures is an improvementBut even in the best states in Easter Europe there wear conflicts, Czechoslovakia treated its minorities rather decently and had one of the highest standards of living in Europe, and they still had problems. And if the economy really kicks the bucket in the Baltic’s……

It's no guarantee, sure. But I think it belies plans.

And I'm glad that Hurgan missed the point. Schiemann was arrested for his politics by the occupation authorities (and he served in the Russian army).

I am wondering it the German balts become the dominate group, if we will se some natural germanisation like that of Silesia and Czechoslovakia.

Eh... it's possible, but I don't think so. The German Balts were the major landowners. This sounds like a recipe for trouble.
 

Susano

Banned
Eh, there were way too few ethnic Germans in the Baltic regions for any Germanification effects. Sure,y they were the elite (the nobility, in fact), but even if German is made the only official language (which is unlikely), you still need a "critical mass" so to say - which wasnt present.
 
This paper explores the proliferation of apocalyptic images in representations ofwar on the Eastern Front in World War I by examining two different kinds ofsources:
official German propaganda and unofficial testimonials of natives in
German-occupied territories. The point at which the images of these sources intersect is a shared and growing apocalyptic imagination in a time of „total war“, as radical new policies became „thinkable“ in the East, both to military occupiers and subject civilians.

German propaganda first highlighted East Prussia‘s devastation by Russian armies to lend credence to claims of a defensive war. Once in control of enemy territory in the Baltic region after 1915, German sources depicted Russian scorched earth policies in those lost areas, contrasting them with orderly German military administration.
Ordinary German soldiers‘ accounts and the creations of
military artists complemented these themes, exemplifying their ubiquity.

Popular sources from Lithuanian natives reveal another perspective. This paper examines particular rumors which circulated among natives concerning Russian scorched earth policy and, afterwards, the plans of the German military government: expected devastation, population transfers, and brutalities against civilians, including murder.

While it is often difficult to make out what basis in fact
these rumors may have, their apocalyptic language and premonitions of violence and displacement make them instructive sources, as yet little exploited by historians, revealing the state of popular psychology among occupied populations.

This inquiry outlines the contrasting political uses of such apocalyptic imagery, during the war and in its aftermath, while also showing how war expanded the mental horizons of the possible to include frightful new policies in Eastern Europe.
You need to read the entire thing. The Underlines are mine.
 

ZeusBlade

Banned
The German Balts were the major landowners. This sounds like a recipe for trouble.
For the record-the German "Barons" in Latvia and Estonia were to rule the territory.

And I'm glad that Hurgan missed the point
And I am not unsuprised that Faeelin decided to ignore several quotes from scholarly sources that depicted the German rule in Baltics not as "wine, roses and sun".

You need to read the entire thing. The Underlines are mine.
Yes, I read the whole thing and avoided quoting the rumours section, while focused more on German plans and attitude, your point ? The paper describes several subjects.
 

ZeusBlade

Banned
Eh, there were way too few ethnic Germans in the Baltic regions for any Germanification effects. Sure,y they were the elite (the nobility, in fact), but even if German is made the only official language (which is unlikely), you still need a "critical mass" so to say - which wasnt present.
In both Poland and Lithuania German was made official language in OTL during IWW.
 
Is your grandfather 300 years old? The Francification of Brittany (and other parts of France) is well attested. See, e.g. Peasants into Frenchmen.

It's well attested but you misuse it. I'm terribly sorry but, since Charlemagne at best, the eastern part of Brittany is French-Speaking. Your exemple is irrelevant. By the way, the relationship between Occitan and "proprer French" is roughly the same as Hochdeutsch and Plattdeutsch. Your statement may be more appropriate for Basques or Corsicans. I could have mentioned Alsatians, but strangely, and although they despise French people "de l'Intérieur" (from Inner France, if you want), they don't seem to like their immediate neighbours very much.

And for the atrocities...Let's just say that, for that matter just like many other, the things that we French are doing on a small basis, Germans manage to develop it up to the industrial scale;)
 
The question of natural Germanisation was based on what I gathered from my Czech and German-Polish family. German was posh so one spoke German as well as Czech/Polish, or you did if you happened to be middleclass anyway.
 

ZeusBlade

Banned
On future government in Baltic states:


When in the summer of 1918 Bredt proposed a constitutional arrangment for Kurland whereby a Baltic-German upper house would have veto power over any legislation emanating from a lower house elected by universal suffrage, the chief representative of the Kurland nobility protested that this proposal was far too liberal, the Latvians he said, should have no say whatsover in their government

Walking Since Daybreak : A Story of Eastern Europe, World War II, and the Heart of Our Century Modris Eksteins page 51.

The author also mentions colonization plans regarding Courland, where demobilized soldiers would be settled, and German dominance assured.
 
By the way, the relationship between Occitan and "proprer French" is roughly the same as Hochdeutsch and Plattdeutsch. Your statement may be more appropriate for Basques or Corsicans.
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While Hoch and Platt ought to be two different languages, being rather further apart than e.g. the 4 continental Scandinavian languages today, I would strongly suggest that Occitan is somewhat further from French than that. Occitan is closer to Catalan, e.g. than it is to Langue d'Oïl (northern 'French').
 
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While Hoch and Platt ought to be two different languages, being rather further apart than e.g. the 4 continental Scandinavian languages today, I would strongly suggest that Occitan is somewhat further from French than that. Occitan is closer to Catalan, e.g. than it is to Langue d'Oïl (northern 'French').

It's debatable. Mutual understanding between late Occitan and Northern dialects varies from mediocre to impossible, but you have a common lingustic continuum between the southernmost "French" dialects and Languedocien, which is the most common form of spoken occitan. Gascon, on the other hand, is quite peculiar, espacially when it comes to grammar. Actually, it's easier for French people to read Catalan than Gascon.

On the other hand, foreigners tend to overestimate the rift between North and South France (although Bordeaux and its surroundings are an exception). It is absolutely true that North and South have deep cultural and political differences, but at the same time, French patriotism, or loyalty to French kings, was quite strong in Occitan areas. During the worst periodes of the Hundred Years War, it's Lyon, Montepllier and Toulouse that remained faithful to Charles VII
 

Susano

Banned
Actually, on this subject I agree with CP. Occitan and Lower German had very much the same position in the 20th century - subsumed into a larger language whose standard was drawn from dialects from someplace entirely different, and both with a reputation for being boorish, for being the language of the peasants and hence with way too many intellectual defenders to develop an own scirptural language.

There are of course differences - for one, Standard French is more or less entirely based on the Paris dialect, while Standard German is drawn from a variety of Middle and Upper German dialects (but yes, that does exclude Lower German), and Occitan once was a high language, as medieval language of the troubadors and favourite court language in the 13th century even a culturally very influential language. But as said, by later centuries that was bygone, and in the end the stories of Occitan and Lower German are very similar...

Of course, the post isnt entirely correct: Taking the 100 Years War as an example of French patriotism seems rather incorrect to me. After all, both sides fought for the King of France, its just that one of the claimants also happened to be King of England. It was entirely a dynastical affair.
 

Deleted member 1487

So France settled hundreds of thousands of "ethnic Frenchmen" into non-Frenchmen territrories, and French writers wrote how those non-French people were filthy animals as opposed to "ethnic Frenchmen", while French PM wrote that those "non-Frenchmen" are animals to be exterminated at any cost and ordered one of the first modern [SIZE=-1]early examples of ethnic cleansing by removing tens of thousands of them ?[/SIZE]

Well, they did the first part, by settling hundreds of thousands of Frenchmen in Alsace-Lorraine after depopulating it in the 17th and 18th centuries through wars. When the Germans took it over, those that left were mostly French government officials and their families that were settled there over the years, the most famous being Dreyfuss. Also, racial anti-semitism was a French concept from the 18th century. The French did look down on other cultures as primitive compared to their own and sought to frenchify them culturally and lingustically, even banning Alsatian in schools and public (government) discourse. Napoleon famously said after meeting Goethe: Today I met a man, but I was just expecting a German!

So while the French did not write about exterminating minorities in their European possessions, they did just about everything else. And lets not forget the horrific murders that took place during the revolution. Not often counted in the figures of the terror, the counterrevolutions in the countryside were met with ferocious retaliation, including in one case the loading of royalist families on a ship, sinking it, and refloating it for the next batch of victims. So the French may not have had a direct anlogue with the German policies in the East, but they were pretty darn close, especially in the colonies.
 
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