CP Victory German Navy

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by KaiserR_, Oct 8, 2019.

  1. KaiserR_ Member

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    I've been working on an alternate timeline where Germany and the Central Powers win the First World War in 1920 following no American Intervention. Germany becomes the premier world power with Mittelafrika and a vast Asian empire coming under Germany's sphere of influence. Meanwhile, most of Central Europe is a German puppet, or in the reich. ITTL, the High Seas Fleet plays a much greater role in the victory using it's capital ships. This results in increased interest in the navy postwar and while less funding than the army, it has more funds than pre-war. France, Britain and Italy all go through major civil wars with some sort of revanchist regimes taking power in all 3. Canada fights to reclaim Britain and France fights on from Algeria. Germany is then the premier world naval power with no restrictions on it's forces. Austria Hungary collapses in the mid 20s with German Austria becoming part of the Reich while Galicia, Lodomeria, and Bohemia become puppets. Hungary and Bulgaria remain close to Germany, while Romania, Yugoslavia (Serbia) and Greece are all aligned with France. The Ottoman Empire is still limping along, but the situation improves after the discovery of oil rich regions reinvigorates the empire.

    So, what would a Kaiserliche Marine look like heading into a Second Weltkrieg? Which begins around 1940. Here was my plan, feel free to discus and offer suggestions.

    Battleships:
    -4 Konig Class used for colonial duties. Saw limited modernization, like increased AA capabilities and conversion to oil firing.

    -3 Tegetthoff Class in reserve. Very limited modernization, mostly just light AA additions.

    -4 Bayern Class modernized with improved engines and AA form the basis of Germany's Med Fleet, based in Trieste/Fiume/Pola.

    -2 Derfflinger Class modernized and based in Singapore against Japan. Im thinking these would be used as cruiser killers as they'd be oil fired and their speed increased to 30 kts. Heavy AA and redone secondary battery as well. A fairly heavy rebuild with these features was carried out in the late 20s.

    -4 Mackensen Class heavily modernized and form the basis of the fleets striking power. I'm thinking increased speed, heavier deck armor, a redone or improved secondary battery and more powerful engines. Of course a heavy AA addition as well. These after their refits sometime in the early-mid 30s be reclassified as fast battleships.

    -3 Yorck Class, essentially the modernizations done to the Mackensens. These ships would form the backbone of the fleet. These would be modernized sometime during the mid 30s.

    -1 Ostreich Class; the last class of battleships under construction for Austria-Hungary, Ostreich was ready for launch at Stabilimento Tecnico Triestino when Austria was annexed into Germany. What this design would be like is what I need to know. It would've been laid down sometime in the mid 20s, probably around 1925-26. Maybe an improved Ersatz Monarch? Discuss pls.

    -3 Luxembourg Class; 3 battleships built in Germany and the only new capital ships built entirely in Germany before the Second Weltkrieg. They would be laid down in the late 20s and be completed by the early 30s. I need some helps with possible designs. Maybe a Bismarck-esque ship with a more rational armor layout?
     
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  2. weasel_airlift Well-Known Member

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    What enemy is likely? It seems that with France and the UK both in a state of civil war that they won't be in a position to be much of a threat. The US won't be bothered as long as you don't touch their stuff. Also note that without a naval treaty, ancient ships like the Tegetthoffs and the Konigs are likely to sent to the breakers long before 1940.

    Regardless:

    Bayerns: Reasonable.

    Derfflingers: If you can make them diesel fired without a lot of effort, they might make admirable commerce raiders. Even oil fired though, I would doubt that they would have the range to play in the vastness of the Pacific.

    Mackensens: I would expect only one or two of these to be completed. The oddball gun caliber would keep more of them from being completed. Other hulls might be played with for carriers.

    Yorcks: If these ships are to be the fleet backbone they need more armor. They are acceptably armored, but not to be the fleet backbone. Honestly, you'd be better scrapping the design and coming up with something new without the constraints of was, else you'll end up with something like the Hood. Overweight, with limited potential. Better to wait until after the war, and draw up a ship that can make 28-30 knots, preferably diesel fired, 8 x 38 cm guns, and better armored. Note that any AA guns are going to be completely dependent on what research is done into aircraft. The US started work early, and came up with DP guns. Germany didn't, and had separate HA and LA batteries, wasting weight.

    Ostreich: If they were an Austria-Hungarian class, only minimal design work would have been done. The Austrian shipyards were an inefficient joke. Also, better to have an extra ship built to German specifications. A ship like that built to another nation's standards is going to be a logistical pain.

    Luxemborg: What would this be like? Take an L20a design, and remove the wartime compromises. So, proper belt, 42 cm guns, ~25 knots, and armored in German fashion. Possibly the Germans do some testing and decide to go with all-or-nothing armor, but that could be as you decide.
     
  3. KaiserR_ Member

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    I should’ve probably clarified the enemy a little better. Britain, France and Italy’s civil wars are all over by roughly 1927. I should also add that Britain was not harmed in the Weltkrieg, it lost no territory and even gained German East Africa. Britain’s Navy is still relatively large, even if outdated and begins rebuilding as the Germans are really powerless to stop them. By ~1939 the combined power of Britain, France and Italy is near parity with Germany. This is why ships like the Tegetthoff and Ostreich exist, as they could be used for defense/convoys while the more modern units fight it out. Also there is Japan, which in a time of war Germany’s East Asia colonies (Indochina, Malaya, and later even Indonesia) all look like easy pickings. This is why the Konigs and Derfflingers exist, as with air cover they can be a decent threat to any Japanese landings. I agree as well that the Yorcks are poorly designed, but the reasons they were completed (most likely to some sort of modified design) is seen as the need to get at least somewhat parity with the Brits as they have at the end of the war 10+ 15 inch capitals while Germany has 2. This is also why the Mackensen Class was completed. Regarding carriers, I’m going to say that the conversions of the armored cruiser Roon and the Ausonia go through. Maybe after testing, a purpose built carrier is built in the mid to late 20s and a class of fleet carriers is built in the 30s. But I like the ideas on Luxembourg. I think with all those ships around the Germans would use some to test the effects of armor and decide all or nothing is better. I might keep the 15 inch Guns though, as 16 inch would already yet another caliber to the arsenal. (German 12, Austrian 12, 13.8, Austrian 14, 15). I would also assume Ostreich would be modified to use more standard German equipment (maybe it’s 14s are switched out for 13.8s?)
     
  4. RamscoopRaider Some Sort of Were-Orca, probably an Akhlut Donor

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    I'd keep the Kaiser class battleships before the Teghettoffs, it's German and much less compromised, the Teghetoffs had a lot of issues, being too much ship on too little hull, and having such flaws as only being able to fight 15 minutes before the gunners run out of air

    The Osterreich class would probably be scrapped, it would likely be too much trouble to keep in service for just a single ship when the decision is made. Actually might just be best to sell it to the highest bidder, and use money to go to a new battleship

    Anyways without a treaty I would say no major rebuilds. For the type of refits you suggest, well every 2 ships refitted is one brand new ship you could build. A more modest refit saves money and frees fund for newer more useful ships

    I'd suggest the following
    • 4 Kaiser class, improved AA and fire control, reserve
    • 4 Konig class, see above
    • 4 Bayern, improved deck armor, AA, fire control, oil firing
    • 2 Derfflinger, ditto
    • 4 Mackensen, see above
    • 3 Yorck as above
    • 4 Replacement Nassau's in 20's, probably a modified L20a, though it could vary depending on what others are doing
    • 4 Replacement Helgolands in 30's, likely a development of the previous but it depends on what everyone else is doing. You aren't building a battleship with 8 42cm guns in a world of N3's, #13's and BB1923's
    • A late 30's war is coming we need to rearm class, depends on what others are doing
    Of course this would require a modification to the naval laws, as otherwise you need 41 Battleships and 18 Battlecruisers, all of which would have to be 20 years old or less
     
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  5. weasel_airlift Well-Known Member

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    I don't think that Italy as a naval power needs to be considered. Whatever Mediterranean holdings can be defended adequately by S-boats, u-boats, and coastal defences. After all, Germany now has a border with Italy, and can walk right in if Italy starts making trouble.

    If we assume that the UK has 5x Queens, 5x R class, 2x Repulse, Hood, Tiger, and let's say the 4 Iron Dukes (No treaty, everything else would be discarded due to age and being worn out), that isn't awful looking for them. No Nelson/G3/N3, since they would have been having a civil war then. Assuming finances are in good shape, maybe a class something like the Lion class. Note that with such a long hiatus in building, the heavy ship industry in the UK is going to be in extremely poor shape. OTL, the UK was obliged to buy armor abroad to build the KGVs. That would be worse in this scenario, so I think that any build times will be extended considerably.

    The French navy will also be in horrible shape. 3 x Courbet (if they are retained; they weren't great ships, and they are ludicrously obsolete) and 3 x Bretagne. No Dunkerque class (Treaty compromise), and due to the civil war, they may also have nothing built. I think any finances they have are going to be directed towards the army. In the last two wars, the navy did nothing, the Army did all the work, so they'll be getting the available cash.

    I see no reason that the Japanese navy will exceed what it was OTL. They were spending way too much, then came the earthquake. So, 4x Kongo, 2x Fuso, 2x Ise, 2x Nagato, maybe 1x Amagi. I doubt the Yamatos will exist, though after the Japanese finances recover enough, maybe further battleships will be built, along the lines of the Amagis, only improved. This is the problem with relegating the Derfflingers and the Konigs to the Pacific. You can bet that if/when the Japanese attack, they will do so in enough force to overwhelm the museum pieces that are defending them. If the Derfflingers can be given enough range, commerce raiding isn't terrible, but a light cruiser is better for that sort of thing (See: Emden). The guns of the Konigs are better removed and put into fortifications. Those ships were not built with tropical service in mind, aside from the issue of range.


    I agree with this for the most part, though I think the Kaisers and Teggethoffs are simply too old to be worth the trouble. The Nassaus and Helgolands will be put into reserve as soon as the war ends, and likely scrapped shortly thereafter. They are too old to be of much use. As I mentioned above, I don't think that the N3/G3, or the #13 will be built. Maybe one or two of the BB1923 will be, but not all 6, and no Lexingtons (As battlecruisers; the Navy didn't want them). The US was already looking to get out of the BB race, and with the RN and IJN unable to compete, I imagine that that Congress will be all the more eager to get out of the race.
     
  6. RamscoopRaider Some Sort of Were-Orca, probably an Akhlut Donor

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    I'd argue different. Japan would have 4 Kongo, 2 Fuso, 2 Ise, 2 Nagato, 2 Tosa, 2-4 Amagis, as the quake would hit while the Amagi's are almost completed, first 2 were due 2&3 months after quake, latter 2 15 months after. Maybe the Japanese restart the program with the Kii's and 13's later once recovered from the quake, maybe just cancel it and start fresh. Yamato was a reaction to US numerical superiority, so is still a late 30's possibility as Japan still has a need for something that can fight 2 Standards at once and win

    As for the US, figure 2 New York, 2 Nevada, 2 Pennsylvania, 3 New Mexico, 2 Tennessee, 4 Colorado, 6 SoDak, 6 *Lexington (different design without British Jutland data, slower/better armored?), and ??? on BB 1922 and BB1923 or Design D,. If the Navy did not want Lexigntons they would not have asked for them in the first place or asked for them to be uncancelled. Incidentally the Lexingtons would be laid down 12-18 months ahead of OTL, and the SoDaks something like 24 months ahead of OTL, and 3 Colorados 24-30 months ahead of OTL without WWI delaying the program. Remember this US does not have the biggest line item on its OTL 1920's government budget, did not fight a big war, and would be much farther along at the change in administrations, so is likely to finish the 1916 program, and maybe keep building battleships at a slow rate, and build something in the 30's given the depression is butterflied

    UK it depends. They are going to be building something as soon as their civil war is over, as control of the sea is absolutely vital to them, being an islnd and all. The G3/N3 are a pretty reasonable reaction to wartime lessons, something derived from them is likely to be what they build, however they could economize depending on funds, or do something smaller to rebuild industry. I'd say without a Treaty they would keep all of the 13.5" ships, they kept the surviving KGV and an Orion until the NelRods finished even with a treaty

    I'd have the Nassu's and Helgolands last longer in reserve. They're still somewhat useful in the Baltic and less than 15 years old at wars end. I'd think they would take time to be scrapped. I'd just keep Kaisers and Konigs in reserve to replace the Nassu/Helgolands in the Baltic in wartime
     
  7. KaiserR_ Member

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    I like the idea of keeping the Kaisers over the Tegetthoffs. The main areas the Tegetthoffs would serve is in the Baltic/Adriatic/Black Seas. So I think replace them with the Kaiser’s as there won’t be much of a need for larger ships. I agree with the suggestions about the Ostreich. Maybe sell it to the Ottomans? And maybe use the money on a fourth Luxembourg class? Italy is a serious threat as it can cut off the sea lanes through the Med and take Suez and Malta from Germany. I think Japan will continue its Pre-Treaty building program that ended with the Kii Class (No. 18 Class). The main reason I also didn’t include more capital ships in the building program is that Germany is in no shape economically to start new capitals until the late 20s and most construction will be towards light cruisers and destroyers and a handful of heavy cruisers.
     
  8. RamscoopRaider Some Sort of Were-Orca, probably an Akhlut Donor

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    There is a land border with Italy. Italy and Germany would both be more concerned with the land front than cutting off sea access. So basing BB in the Adriatic is foolish. If you win the land front the Italians surrender and it doesn't matter, if you lose the base gets overrun and you lose your ships. In either case they can't be present in the important North Sea and Baltic Sea theaters

    If your Germany lacks money for new Capital ships, it lacks money for extensive rebuilds. You have 13 ships getting heavy refits. Give them more modest refits and you free up money that along with selling Osterreich to the Ottomans to afford 5 new Battleships. Refits that increase speed are hellaciouslly expensive

    Kii class was #9, #13 was to follow the Kii class and only went up to #16
     
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  9. KaiserR_ Member

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    I should’ve probably also listed out the expected enemies to face.
    Britain’s navy was split during the civil war between royalist and revolutionaries. The royalist portion escaped to Canada. Revolutionary Britain is left with roughly the following ships:
    -2-3 Queen Elizabeths
    -2 Revenge Class
    -2 Renown Class
    -3 Dukes
    -Tiger
    -Some sort of BBs built in the early 30s and another class completing as the war begins.

    France will be allowed to keep 2 Courbets, with only 1 being allowed active at a time. These 2 are modernized as much as possible as no new ships can be built (Think Italian style rebuilds) and maybe a pair of Scharnhorst-type raiders pre-war. France focuses more on long range cruiser-raiders and submarines.

    Italy will keep Dante Algiehri and probably build a similar design to France with a bit more emphasis on heavier guns and armor in exchange for range.

    The Ottomans are something of a dark horse ITTL. On one hand, Germany has military missions to them but Germany taking Aden and Suez are rather resented. Their navy is as follows:
    -Former Von see Tann
    -2 Moltkes.
    -2 Helgolands
    -Maybe the Ostreich?
    -Blücher (not sunk ITTL)
    -Weltkrieg era German destroyers and cruisers.
     
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  10. KaiserR_ Member

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    I get what you mean about Italy with the land border, but said border is very mountainous. In the second Weltkrieg ITTL, Germany ends up fighting a war on 4 fronts. The western front in France and Belgium; the Italian front in the Alps, the Balkan front in Croatia/Romania and later on the Eastern Front. Due to this and the terrain of the front, Germany would likely take a defensive stance on the Italian front. It’s also crucial to ensure critical raw materials like oil and rubber can reach Germany and keep the war machine fueled. This is what requires a strong Med fleet to keep Italian and French raiders at bay so supplies can travel through the canal, across the sea and up the Adriatic to Germany.
     
  11. RamscoopRaider Some Sort of Were-Orca, probably an Akhlut Donor

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    Even before a CP victory A-H had a foothold on the Venetian Plain, that's probably bigger. So unless A-H did not retake any land in the Veneto and Germany gave up a bunch of land in Carinola for no good reason, land that makes defending Trieste easier, part of the border is not mountains, and they have a stratight shot down the Venetian plain to the Po valley and from that to Milan and basically all of Italy' Industry, no mountains involved. Assuming they limit Italy's Army and don't let them build forts it's easy enough

    As for getting supplies up the Adriatic, the Strait of Otranto is 80km and close to Italian bases. It would be hell to keep open, given that it's location makes keeping it clear of mines, and avoiding sub and torpedo boat attacks near impossible, and when aircraft get involved, it's basically impassable to merchants unless you control Albania with large scale airbases to suppress the Italians. Warships can get through but merchants are too slow. German supplies would ideally come from neutral Balkan countries from the Black Sea and neutral Turkey
     
  12. KaiserR_ Member

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    I never thought of supplies coming up the Balkans. Germany is at war with Greece/Croatia/Yugoslavia and allied to Bulgaria so theoretically after these countries are conquered, supplies could be shipped up to occupied Greece and through the Balkans. Perhaps all that’s needed in the Adriatic is a Kaiser and a half flotilla of destroyers. 2 Bayern’s and some fortifications should be enough to hold the Suez. Malta would probably be written off due to its proximity to Italy. I still doubt that Germany’s main offensive thrust would come through Italy, as they would most likely focus on the elimination of the Balkan Front for the supplies form their colonies. Of course oil could also be acquired from the German Puppet in Azerbaijan. But that doesn’t solve the rubber problem.
     
  13. RamscoopRaider Some Sort of Were-Orca, probably an Akhlut Donor

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    Synthetic Rubber, or just imports via Turkey-Bulgaria-Romania-Slovakia-Czech Republic, if the latter are neutral that's easy enough, no need to occupy anyone, arguably counterproductive and better to ship through neutrals. Rubber does not have to come from German Colonies or move in German hulls through German or German allied territory. If Turkey is neutral and no one blockading them, they can ship it to Bulgaria, who puts it on a train, which goes through Romania (if nuetral, they also have oil), then either through Poland or Hungary or Slovakia and Czech Republic to Germany, depending on who is neutral/allied

    Any Battleship in the Adriatic is just wasted, though more DD and U-Boats would be useful. As for the Suez, that's a fundamentally land issue, and you can't support forces there, so having them there just invites them getting cut off and destroyed in a long war while they can be useful elsewhere
     
  14. KaiserR_ Member

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    Well Croatia/Yugoslavia/Romania/Greece are already aligned against Germany and want land from Germany’s allies in Hungary and Bulgaria, so it would make sense to occupy them. Also as long as Italians can’t land on the Suez, only a small garrison would be needed. And the Kaisers and a wing of fighters would block off the sea attack routes.
     
  15. RamscoopRaider Some Sort of Were-Orca, probably an Akhlut Donor

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    The Italians presumably still have Libya and thus have a land route, unless you want to risk your BB pretty far west they would not matter. Okay Croatia and Yugoslavia should not be in existence at the same time, one or the other as without Croatia you just have bigger Serbia not Yugoslavia. Also your Germany seems to have massively failed its diplomacy options, having France, Italy, Yugoslavia, Greece, Romania and Russia at war with it at the same time. France and Italy don't particularly like each other, Greece and Yugoslavia should have issues with Italy, Romania should want protection against Russia if they still yoinked Bessarabia. Greece and Romania got their pound of flesh vis a vis Bulgaria in Balkan War II already, they are presumably satisfied in that regard
     
  16. KaiserR_ Member

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    I probably should’ve explained the treaties following the Weltkrieg. Italian Libya became an Ottoman Puppet following the war. Yugoslavia initially included all of Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegro and parts of Macedonia. Only after Croat protests was a Croat puppet state created, and it only controls inland Croatia and northern Dalmatia. They still want to reclaim Vovodjina/Syrmia/West Banat from Hungary and Macedonia from Bulgaria. Both Hungary and Bulgaria are in Germany’s sphere of influence, naturally aligning them with France. Greece also has territorial claims as following the war, Bulgaria annexed all of Thrace and most of southern Macedonia, as wells a Dobrudja and the Romanian coast from Romania. Romania also still wants Transylvania from Hungary, aligning both Greece and Romania against German. France and Italy are more concerned with retaking Sedan/Nanzig/Dunkirk/AL and Trieste/South Tyrol/Trento/Slovenia. The only major dispute prewar is between Yugoslavia/Croatia and Italy over who gets Rijeka/Fiume. Russia also wants to reclaim the Baltics/Belarus/Ukraine/Finland, and those are all German Puppets.
     
  17. Chris Triangle Edits a lot

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    I'm sorry but I don't find the premise of all these civil wars or total allied capitulation on all colonial matters particularly plausible so this world is really difficult to visualize.

    When it comes to battle ships and the like, France and Italy would fall way behind due to war costs and reparations payments but in no foreseeable scenario is Britain falling behind nor does it need to agree to any ridiculous demands because Germany wasn't going to win at sea, even with U boats.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2019
  18. RamscoopRaider Some Sort of Were-Orca, probably an Akhlut Donor

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    I'm not sure the Ottomans even want Libya back. Also either they have Egypt, at which point they secure Suez and Germany does not have to, or Britain still has it, at which point Suez is indefensible or it is independent, and Suez is still indefensible should Egypt pick a side. If Britain is neutral or allied then Germany can get supplies landed at Hamburg

    If Croatia and the Slovenes are not part of it, it's just a bigger Serbia, not Yugoslavia

    Your Germany is still diplomatically incompetent. If nothing else point Italy at Nice/Savoy/Corsica/Tunisia and point out France is weaker than they are. Also having Hungary give up Croatia (Part of the Hungarian Crown lands in A-H) but not Transylvania. Or not ensuring the Balkan countries are kept neutral/allied by treaty
     
  19. KaiserR_ Member

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    I’ll admit the timeline is a bit far fetched, it’s setup for a HOI4 mod beginning in 1947 that explores a 3 way Cold War between the Entente (USA), EuropaPakt (Germany), and East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere (Japan). Europe is divided between a Pro US (Britain, South France, Most of Italy, Spain, Portugal, Greece, Serbia/Croatia, Romania) against a Pro-German sphere (Germany, Poland, Hungary, Bulgaria, Baltic States, Ukraine, Sweden and White Ruthenia.