County, not Tiger

[pdf27]

A very short bullet-point timeline to try and get me writing again.

• November 1954: The proposal to build 3 updated Tiger class cruisers is rejected in Cabinet. Blake, Defence & Bellerophon will instead be scrapped.
• September 1957: The RN order for County-class destroyers is increased from 10 hulls to 12. 8 remain in their original anti-aircraft role, while four will be completed to a modified design in order to replace Ocean and Theseus in the East of Suez Commando carrier role. These ships will have the Sea Slug missile system removed and replaced with a large hanger and flight deck aft for four Wessex helicopters and accommodation for a Company of Royal Marines. They will also have a simplified electronics fit, bringing the cost down to £4 million each.
• June 1960: After the Australian government decide not to buy it as a replacement for Melbourne, the carrier HMS Albion is decommissioned.
• August 1962: HMS Dorsetshire is commissioned. This is the first of the County class destroyers designed to fulfil the Commando Carrier role. The three remaining hulls (York, Suffolk & Sussex) will be commissioned over the next 5 years.
• March 1978: In order to avoid the expensive refit needed to bring Bulwark back into service to cover the delays to the new carrier Invincible, Suffolk and Sussex are given rapid refits to switch them from the Commando to ASW role.
• 11th June 1982: Brigade General Mario Menéndez surrenders to Major General Jeremy Moore in Port Stanley. 192 British servicemen and 673 Argentineans have been killed in the conflict.
• 1991: Dorsetshire, York, Suffolk and Sussex are decommissioned following the Options for Change defence review, 5 years after the rest of the class were sold off.

 

[Ramontxo]

If you are going to follow on this I would be, very, very interested.

 

[jsb]

You could add maybe some export sales of DDGs old with a 4.5" twin replaced with missiles say a USN RIM-24 Tartar or a later ship or conversion could use (or you could just do an earlier version of...) RIM-7 Sea Sparrow? And replace the other one with a single 5"....

 

[pdf27]

I'm not planning to follow on - really struggling to write anything at the moment, so had an idea and put it out in short form to try and break the logjam.

Rough cut is that the RN budget and manpower requirements are about the same as OTL, but re-jigging things means that the RN has 16x additional Wessex in the Falklands which means Bluff Cove doesn't happen. The helicopter arrangement on the 4 additional ships is more or less the same as the back end of the OTL Tiger cruisers, so a little more capable than what the Chileans did with their County class ships in OTL. Keeping things simple is essential to get the new ships approved, and once in service it's hard to see any major refit being justified given their role.

 

[Ramontxo]

I'm not planning to follow on - really struggling to write anything at the moment, so had an idea and put it out in short form to try and break the logjam.

Rough cut is that the RN budget and manpower requirements are about the same as OTL, but re-jigging things means that the RN has 16x additional Wessex in the Falklands which means Bluff Cove doesn't happen. The helicopter arrangement on the 4 additional ships is more or less the same as the back end of the OTL Tiger cruisers, so a little more capable than what the Chileans did with their County class ships in OTL. Keeping things simple is essential to get the new ships approved, and once in service it's hard to see any major refit being justified given their role.

I am not going to start another controversy mentioning the role of the Welsh Guards in the said disaster. But that is pecata minuta in comparison with distracting you from, real life, family and more important things like following on with one of the best time lines I have ever read here.

 

[Ramontxo]

I am not going to start another controversy mentioning the role of the Welsh Guards in the said disaster. But that is pecata minuta in comparison with distracting you from, real life, family and more important things like following on with one of the best time lines I have ever read here.

Take your time for real life and family. Any other things come after them. And if you cannot follow (for a time, or so I hope) with the other TL just enjoy yourself writing here (I am going to enjoy myself reading you)

 

[steamboy]

Definately a good idea, the Tiger's were a waste of money anyhow. The extra helo capabilities adds to ASW defences for the GIUK gap as well. Imagine if the RN had something like the planned Sea Rapier had been put aboard instead of their Sea Cats during the 78 refit. Yes the launcher was finiky and fragile but its still a damn sight better AA weapon than seacat.

 

[jsb]

Definately a good idea, the Tiger's were a waste of money anyhow. The extra helo capabilities adds to ASW defences for the GIUK gap as well. Imagine if the RN had something like the planned Sea Rapier had been put aboard instead of their Sea Cats during the 78 refit. Yes the launcher was finiky and fragile but its still a damn sight better AA weapon than seacat.

What about Sea Flash since UK was in 70s starting production of Skyflash making a system instead of GWS-22/24 to fire it should work in the same time to fit on the DDGs and types?

 

[steamboy]

You'd need to come up with the launcher for it, at least with Rapier, the launcher and systems for it are already there.

 

[Psteel]

I can't see TIGER mods being passed over when all the other 6" cruisers are being phased out through the 1960s. The rational for the three twin auto 6" gun cruisers was to allow the rest of the dozen 6" cruisers to retire though the 1960s . As long as potential of the SVERDLOW "surface raiders" existed , the RN had to keep 6" gun cruisers to counter that threat. it was bad enough that USSR built 14 through the 1950s.

 

[Fuzzy Dunlop]

Rough cut is that the RN budget and manpower requirements are about the same as OTL, but re-jigging things means that the RN has 16x additional Wessex in the Falklands which means Bluff Cove doesn't happen

Question is though

If the 16x additional Wessex are in the Falklands does that there's mean no Atlantic Conveyor?

If so where do the 2 Exocet's go to on the 25th of May?

 

[PMN1]

Question is though

If the 16x additional Wessex are in the Falklands does that there's mean no Atlantic Conveyor?

If so where do the 2 Exocet's go to on the 25th of May?

Well, she wasn't only carrying helicopters so I dont see why there would not be at least an equivalent ship.

 

[steamboy]

I can't see TIGER mods being passed over when all the other 6" cruisers are being phased out through the 1960s. The rational for the three twin auto 6" gun cruisers was to allow the rest of the dozen 6" cruisers to retire though the 1960s . As long as potential of the SVERDLOW "surface raiders" existed , the RN had to keep 6" gun cruisers to counter that threat. it was bad enough that USSR built 14 through the 1950s.

That's what the Town class and airpower are for. You've also got the Minotaur, Swiftsure and Superb, and 6 Fiji's if you need a 6-inch gunned cruiser. There's also still legions of USN cruisers around that would be deployed in a time of war and by the time most of the Sverderlovs are made, you've got Buccaneer's to drop bombs on them. Ideally you'd give the post war MOD a brain and have them go "Okay they have cruisers. We have better submarines and lot more airpower, so please, lets have them waste materials on them." and not build a response.

Question is though

If the 16x additional Wessex are in the Falklands does that there's mean no Atlantic Conveyor?

If so where do the 2 Exocet's go to on the 25th of May?

Probably still into the Atlantic Conveyor, she was carrying more than a few helecopters, but lots of supplies and other equipment.

 

[pdf27]

What about Sea Flash since UK was in 70s starting production of Skyflash making a system instead of GWS-22/24 to fire it should work in the same time to fit on the DDGs and types?

Sea Wolf is a much smaller missile than Sparrow/Sky Flash, and started development 5 years earlier, and that's the real "instead of GWS-22/24" system. In any case the British are catastrophically bad at tri-service missile procurement until very recently (Land Ceptor/Sea Ceptor is finally a thing!) so using a light blue missile system isn't realistic given the POD here.

I can't see TIGER mods being passed over when all the other 6" cruisers are being phased out through the 1960s. The rational for the three twin auto 6" gun cruisers was to allow the rest of the dozen 6" cruisers to retire though the 1960s . As long as potential of the SVERDLOW "surface raiders" existed , the RN had to keep 6" gun cruisers to counter that threat. it was bad enough that USSR built 14 through the 1950s.

This seems to have been a somewhat controversial view at the time - some in the RN thought so, others thought that destroyers or aircraft carriers were the more appropriate response. They appear to have been thought of as a cheap stop-gap until ~1965 when guided weapon equipped warships would be available. However, given Churchill was looking to make cuts to give the RAF and the nuclear weapons programme more money, they look to have been vulnerable and so decent fodder for a what-if.

Question is though

If the 16x additional Wessex are in the Falklands does that there's mean no Atlantic Conveyor?

If so where do the 2 Exocet's go to on the 25th of May?

Assume nothing has changed about sending the Atlantic Conveyor - you want every helicopter you can get down there, and essentially by building these ships you increase the total Wessex fleet by 16 rather than moving them from somewhere else in the UK.
As for whether Atlantic Conveyor would still be there, no idea. I've yet to see a decent explanation for why she was that close in - unless actively flying off aircraft she should have been far, far out of the line of fire.

 

[Admiral Jellicoe]

Really interesting idea - and coincidentally just rereading Eric Grove's 'Vanguard to Trident' which describes the painful discussions about the postwar navy and the battle to retain the carriers and cruisers

So as a potential POD - Duncan Sandys doesn't fall ill during the crucial debates about carriers and cruisers - he was dead against them and when he was out of action the carrier lobby won through. In this timeline he is in full fight and wins the day. Hence moving away from fleet carriers and moving to a more flexible response that also eases manning as well as costs. Scrapping the Tiger hulls is a further saving. As a sop to the Sverdlov issue Superb, Swiftsure and Belfast are all converted to the rapid fire 6 inch and receive their 3inch AA upgrade too (always proposed, never afforded)

 

[pdf27]

So as a potential POD - Duncan Sandys doesn't fall ill during the crucial debates about carriers and cruisers - he was dead against them and when he was out of action the carrier lobby won through.

Excellent - that makes a much better POD than my "they made a different decision" and better yet gives a coherent reason behind it which could be used to flesh out the rest of the changes.

Hence moving away from fleet carriers and moving to a more flexible response that also eases manning as well as costs. Scrapping the Tiger hulls is a further saving. As a sop to the Sverdlov issue Superb, Swiftsure and Belfast are all converted to the rapid fire 6 inch and receive their 3inch AA upgrade too (always proposed, never afforded)

If my understanding is correct, manning was always the worst limit for the post-war RN - and if I'm understanding correctly not only did the County class need a much smaller crew but on-board conditions would have been better than on the Tiger class which would presumably help with retention.
Did they ever consider converting existing cruisers to the rapid fire 6"? I've never seen anything, so it's hard to know just how big a refit would be required (doing it Victorious-style would be a bad idea!).

 

[Admiral Jellicoe]

Excellent - that makes a much better POD than my "they made a different decision" and better yet gives a coherent reason behind it which could be used to flesh out the rest of the changes.


If my understanding is correct, manning was always the worst limit for the post-war RN - and if I'm understanding correctly not only did the County class need a much smaller crew but on-board conditions would have been better than on the Tiger class which would presumably help with retention.
Did they ever consider converting existing cruisers to the rapid fire 6"? I've never seen anything, so it's hard to know just how big a refit would be required (doing it Victorious-style would be a bad idea!).

Gove makes passing reference (p52) to discussion within naval staff about rearming some cruisers to projected Tiger standards with the new 6inch and 3inch weapons. ITTL they get the nod so as to get the automatic 6inch to sea, to have a viable counter to the Sverdlov and as a booby prize for losing the carrier fight,

Gove further describes the debates over the future global strategy and naval estimates in 1952 in which Sandys as Minister for Supply was the principal opponent of the naval plans and in particular carriers and cruisers (p.92-107) Sandys fell ill during Jan/feb 54 and so missed the meetings at which it was decided to keep the carrier strike forces as well as Vanguard and a reduced number of cruisers. Sandys was a powerful figure and had he not fallen ill the decision may have gone a different direction and thus your additional counties

 

[steamboy]

If moving away from the Carriers does not mean getting rid of Ark Royal and Eagle early then this is a good thing, perhaps not bothering with the hugely expensive refits of the AFD carriers which was massive wastes of money. Instead keep the Ark and Eagle and the Light Fleets. And i'd say not even bother with giving the CL's the 6-inch guns from the Tigers, thats an expensive and major overhaul.

How about this

For the standard Counties, they get a single turret for a dual 6-inch forwards, and the Helo-Counties, they get a pair of 3-inch mounts?

 

[Admiral Jellicoe]

If Sandys wins out you get the light fleets only and therefore the manpower, resources and funding and rationale for the extra counties. I doubt the counties could handle the 6inch turret - they could only manage two on the much bigger Tigers