Counts of Artois and Provence both go to the guillotine

Who would be placed on the throne upon the Bourbon Restoration, and how might their rule pan out?
 
If the Dauphin Louis Charles still die while imprisoned, Louis Antoine of Angouleme (the eldest son of Artois) will became King of France and he will as OTL marry his first cousin Marie Therese Charlotte, Madame Royale. If they still as OTL do not have children the next in line is his brother Charles Ferdinand of Berry. After them the next in line is the Duke of Orleans (the OTL Louis Philippe I assuming his father die on schedule). If Louis XVII, Angolume and Berry will all die and Egalitè survive is likely who he and his descendats will be excluded from the line of succession (he voted for the death of his cousin and King Louis XVI) for high treason and the Crown will go the next in lines aka the Condes followed by the Contis
 
If the Dauphin Louis Charles still die while imprisoned, Louis Antoine of Angouleme (the eldest son of Artois) will became King of France and he will as OTL marry his first cousin Marie Therese Charlotte, Madame Royale. If they still as OTL do not have children the next in line is his brother Charles Ferdinand of Berry. After them the next in line is the Duke of Orleans


Actually the next is Berri's son, OTL's Comte de Chambord.
 
If the Dauphin Louis Charles still die while imprisoned, Louis Antoine of Angouleme (the eldest son of Artois) will became King of France and he will as OTL marry his first cousin Marie Therese Charlotte, Madame Royale. If they still as OTL do not have children the next in line is his brother Charles Ferdinand of Berry. After them the next in line is the Duke of Orleans (the OTL Louis Philippe I assuming his father die on schedule). If Louis XVII, Angolume and Berry will all die and Egalitè survive is likely who he and his descendats will be excluded from the line of succession (he voted for the death of his cousin and King Louis XVI) for high treason and the Crown will go the next in lines aka the Condes followed by the Contis

Why would Egalité's descendants be more likely to be excluded from the succession in this timeline than in the actual one?
 
If the Dauphin Louis Charles still die while imprisoned, Louis Antoine of Angouleme (the eldest son of Artois) will became King of France and he will as OTL marry his first cousin Marie Therese Charlotte, Madame Royale. If they still as OTL do not have children the next in line is his brother Charles Ferdinand of Berry. After them the next in line is the Duke of Orleans (the OTL Louis Philippe I assuming his father die on schedule). If Louis XVII, Angolume and Berry will all die and Egalitè survive is likely who he and his descendats will be excluded from the line of succession (he voted for the death of his cousin and King Louis XVI) for high treason and the Crown will go the next in lines aka the Condes followed by the Contis

Yeah no. For one, without Louis XVIII pulling the strings chances are Marie-Thérése will end up giving in to the Emperor Franz II's wish and marrying his brother Archduke Karl. Assuming she has kids with Archduke Karl there's a high chance that they would gain the French throne as co-rulers. The restoration of the Bourbons was by no means a guaranteed thing, even as late as March 1814. Second, why would Egalité survive? Third, the throne would, if the Bourbons were restored and the Orléans are excluded, eventually pass to the Spanish Borbóns by necessity. The Condé line had no heir after the Duc d'Enghien's execution and the Conti died with the last Prince.

Why would Egalité's descendants be more likely to be excluded from the succession in this timeline than in the actual one?

Here he would have had a hand the execution of three royals, not just one. I can't see any of the surviving Bourbons being willing to extend any kind of olive branch to the rest of the Orléans line.
 
Why would Egalité's descendants be more likely to be excluded from the succession in this timeline than in the actual one?
I was not talking only about Egalité's descendants, my scenario had two divergences with OTL:
1) Louis XVI, Loius XVII, Provence, Artois, Angouleme and Berry all die before the Restauration
2) Philippe Egalité (aka the Duke of Orleans who was compromised with the Revolution and voted for the death of the King) is still alive and is the first in line... and likely blamed by almost all the French monarchists for the deaths of the royal family (Just one or two votes more for exile of Louis XVI instead of death and all the French royals captured by the jacobins will be escorted out of the France instead of being guillotined). You really think who the Congress of Vienna would put a such man on the French throne?
Excluding him you will exclude also his descendants so the next in line is Condè (but at this point the King of Rome, grandson of the Emperor of Austria, has real chances to stay on the throne)
 
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I was not talking only about Egalité's descendants, my scenario had two divergences with OTL:
1) Louis XVI, Loius XVII, Provence, Artois, Angouleme and Berry all die before the Restauration
2) Philippe Egalité (aka the Duke of Orleans who was compromised with the Revolution and voted for the death of the King) is still alive and is the first in line... and likely blamed by almost all the French monarchists for the deaths of the royal family (Just one or two votes more for exile of Louis XVI instead of death and all the French royals captured by the jacobins will be escorted out of the France instead of being guillotined). You really think who the Congress of Vienna would put a such man on the French throne?
Excluding him you will exclude also his descendants so the next in line is Condè (but at this point the King of Rome, grandson of the Emperor of Austria, has real chances to stay on the throne)

How do you even get there, though? I think Egalité's more or less a dead man if you have anything at all similar to the OTL Terror.

I also don't see why excluding Egalité would require excluding his son as well. The duc de Chartres didn't vote for the death of Louis XVI, why should he be passed over? Especially since the Condés are, in 1814, a 78 year old and his 58 year old son, with no prospect of an heir, while Chartres has a large and growing family. It strikes me as unthinkable that you pass over the vigorous 41 year old with the young, child-bearing wife in favor of the line doomed to imminent extinction.

Sure, there will be crazy Ultras who blame Chartres for his father's actions and don't want to accept him as King. But I don't see why they'll be relevant. Chartres and his father will be the only plausible candidates. And certainly the Russians and the British will look at both very seriously. The Prussians don't care who's on the throne, and the Austrians will push the King of Rome, but everyone else will still hate that.

I suppose Bernadotte also becomes a possibility in this scenario.
 
Here he would have had a hand the execution of three royals, not just one. I can't see any of the surviving Bourbons being willing to extend any kind of olive branch to the rest of the Orléans line.

Why are the opinions of the surviving Bourbons at all relevant? Also, I don't see why Egalité would have necessarily had a hand in the other executions - he wasn't involved in the OTL executions of Marie Antoinette and Madame Elisabeth, for instance. If Provence and Artois are imprisoned until the Terror, which seems likely, they and Egalité may share a tumbrel.
 
I was not talking only about Egalité's descendants, my scenario had two divergences with OTL:
1) Louis XVI, Loius XVII, Provence, Artois, Angouleme and Berry all die before the Restauration
2) Philippe Egalité (aka the Duke of Orleans who was compromised with the Revolution and voted for the death of the King) is still alive and is the first in line... and likely blamed by almost all the French monarchists for the deaths of the royal family (Just one or two votes more for exile of Louis XVI instead of death and all the French royals captured by the jacobins will be escorted out of the France instead of being guillotined). You really think who the Congress of Vienna would put a such man on the French throne?
Excluding him you will exclude also his descendants so the next in line is Condè (but at this point the King of Rome, grandson of the Emperor of Austria, has real chances to stay on the throne)
Technically the Bourbon-Espagne stand in front of the Bourbon-Orléans in the succession due to the Salic Law. So... No Orléanais Restoration.
 
Technically the Bourbon-Espagne stand in front of the Bourbon-Orléans in the succession due to the Salic Law. So... No Orléanais Restoration.
Pretty sure nobody is going to want a Franco-Spanish union. Including both the French and the Spanish if things go similar to OTL.

Besides, most of the victorious powers in the Napoleonic Wars were also signatories of the Peace of Utrecht; given recent history, they aren't going to be sympathetic to any arguments that might allow France to wriggle out of its treaty obligations.
 
How do you even get there, though? I think Egalité's more or less a dead man if you have anything at all similar to the OTL Terror.

I also don't see why excluding Egalité would require excluding his son as well. The duc de Chartres didn't vote for the death of Louis XVI, why should he be passed over? Especially since the Condés are, in 1814, a 78 year old and his 58 year old son, with no prospect of an heir, while Chartres has a large and growing family. It strikes me as unthinkable that you pass over the vigorous 41 year old with the young, child-bearing wife in favor of the line doomed to imminent extinction.

Sure, there will be crazy Ultras who blame Chartres for his father's actions and don't want to accept him as King. But I don't see why they'll be relevant. Chartres and his father will be the only plausible candidates. And certainly the Russians and the British will look at both very seriously. The Prussians don't care who's on the throne, and the Austrians will push the King of Rome, but everyone else will still hate that.

I suppose Bernadotte also becomes a possibility in this scenario.

I can see several alternatives. If the whole family of the Bourbons is executed (save perhaps for Madame Royale) I think there will be a lot more sympathy for the (lone) survivor, who already in OTL was the "Orphan of the Temple", by all of Europe and by France itself post-Napoleon. In that case I CAN see salic law being overturned (heck the Allies could do what they wanted at that point) and Marie-Therese and her likely Habsburg husband (who is a good military leader and not likely to make the mistakes of Charles X) on the throne.

Also I can definitely see Louis-Phillipe d'Orleans. being given the throne. We know both he and his family (particularly his sister) are extremely ambitious and they were highly regarded by Alexander of Russia. Yes, Egalitie voted for Louis XVI's death, but even in OTL that was not held to L-P as much as his ursurpation of the young Henri V's rights when Charles X trusted him and made him Regent. In this case that never happens and L-P never personally betrayed the main branch of the Bourbons and the Legitimists who loathed him in OTL would rally to him.

Then there's the Bernadotte factor. I don't think it would be Bernadotte persay (he had already abjured Catholicism for the Swedish throne, no, so the monarchist base probably would not take to him) but the most capable (and traditional) of the Marshals might be a good pick. If the allies really wanted to experiment they could place the VERY young, OTL Charles II of Parma (who is unquestionably a Bourbon and descendant of Louis XIV) on the French throne with a capable Regency (controlled by the Allies/Talleyrand) in exchange for giving the Habsburgs complete control of Parma after Marie Louise's death.
 
I can see several alternatives. If the whole family of the Bourbons is executed (save perhaps for Madame Royale) I think there will be a lot more sympathy for the (lone) survivor, who already in OTL was the "Orphan of the Temple", by all of Europe and by France itself post-Napoleon. In that case I CAN see salic law being overturned (heck the Allies could do what they wanted at that point) and Marie-Therese and her likely Habsburg husband (who is a good military leader and not likely to make the mistakes of Charles X) on the throne.

Also I can definitely see Louis-Phillipe d'Orleans. being given the throne. We know both he and his family (particularly his sister) are extremely ambitious and they were highly regarded by Alexander of Russia. Yes, Egalitie voted for Louis XVI's death, but even in OTL that was not held to L-P as much as his ursurpation of the young Henri V's rights when Charles X trusted him and made him Regent. In this case that never happens and L-P never personally betrayed the main branch of the Bourbons and the Legitimists who loathed him in OTL would rally to him.

Then there's the Bernadotte factor. I don't think it would be Bernadotte persay (he had already abjured Catholicism for the Swedish throne, no, so the monarchist base probably would not take to him) but the most capable (and traditional) of the Marshals might be a good pick. If the allies really wanted to experiment they could place the VERY young, OTL Charles II of Parma (who is unquestionably a Bourbon and descendant of Louis XIV) on the French throne with a capable Regency (controlled by the Allies/Talleyrand) in exchange for giving the Habsburgs complete control of Parma after Marie Louise's death.

I know there was actual talk of Bernadotte in 1814 or 1815, so that wasn't just made up out of thin air. In this scenario, by the way, is there any possibility of the marriage of Louis Philippe d'Orléans with Madame Royal? The ages line up well, and Louis Philippe didn't marry OTL until 1810, so he's available. It would be an obvious move for the Orléans family, and makes as much sense for Madame as marrying Archduke Charles.
 
Technically the Bourbon-Espagne stand in front of the Bourbon-Orléans in the succession due to the Salic Law. So... No Orléanais Restoration.

Philip V had renounced succession rights for himself and his descendants in the Treaty of Utrecht. There were, indeed, some people who didn't accept this, but I don't think their objects have any practical result in the actual context of the 1814-1830 period. Prior to the July Revolution, if the senior line dies out, Orléans is going to become king. A few Ultras might object, but there's no way the army and the Napoleonic officials accept Ferdinand VII or one of his brothers as King of France, to say nothing of great power objections.
 
I know there was actual talk of Bernadotte in 1814 or 1815, so that wasn't just made up out of thin air. In this scenario, by the way, is there any possibility of the marriage of Louis Philippe d'Orléans with Madame Royal? The ages line up well, and Louis Philippe didn't marry OTL until 1810, so he's available. It would be an obvious move for the Orléans family, and makes as much sense for Madame as marrying Archduke Charles.

Given her character, I don't think she would ever marry the son and heir of someone (who was her kinsman!) who voted for her father's death. And she disliked L-P to begin with and unlike her uncles NEVER trusted him. The only time Madam Royale was known to share similar feelings of happiness with her sister-in-law the Duchess of Berri was when word came that L-P and the Orleans had been dethroned in '48.

Philip V had renounced succession rights for himself and his descendants in the Treaty of Utrecht. There were, indeed, some people who didn't accept this, but I don't think their objects have any practical result in the actual context of the 1814-1830 period. Prior to the July Revolution, if the senior line dies out, Orléans is going to become king. A few Ultras might object, but there's no way the army and the Napoleonic officials accept Ferdinand VII or one of his brothers as King of France, to say nothing of great power objections.

I don't think it would actually happen (although to this day there are some who dispute the renunciations of Phillip hence the current Legitimist belief in Luis Alfonso de Bourbon - aka de jure Louis XX) but I was just thinking along the lines that the victorious Allies at that point could install whatever pliant King on France that they wanted (one of the reasons Louis XVIII got the throne despite not being popular). And the child heir of Parma/Etruria, in this instance, though a nephew of Ferdinand of Spain through his sister, is not really one of the incompetent Spanish Bourbons.
 
How do you even get there, though? I think Egalité's more or less a dead man if you have anything at all similar to the OTL Terror.

I also don't see why excluding Egalité would require excluding his son as well. The duc de Chartres didn't vote for the death of Louis XVI, why should he be passed over? Especially since the Condés are, in 1814, a 78 year old and his 58 year old son, with no prospect of an heir, while Chartres has a large and growing family. It strikes me as unthinkable that you pass over the vigorous 41 year old with the young, child-bearing wife in favor of the line doomed to imminent extinction.

Sure, there will be crazy Ultras who blame Chartres for his father's actions and don't want to accept him as King. But I don't see why they'll be relevant. Chartres and his father will be the only plausible candidates. And certainly the Russians and the British will look at both very seriously. The Prussians don't care who's on the throne, and the Austrians will push the King of Rome, but everyone else will still hate that.

I suppose Bernadotte also becomes a possibility in this scenario.

I had forgotten to check better the things: If the jacobins will have also Provence and Artois under custody is unlikely they will left Chartres in a position of power in the revolutionary army without survellaince so is likely he will not be able to escape. His younger brothers (and also their mother and paternal aunt, the latter being Condè's daughter-in-law) also were in France and OTL were arrested (OTL they survived the Terror and were exiled by the Directory) so they will follow the fate of Angouleme and Berry, likely guillottine for all (and I am not sure who Madame Royale, who is both young and female but the daughter of the king, can be saved from a such carneficine)
Condè in 1793 has a son but also a grandson (the Duke of Enghien, born in 1772 and killed by Napoleon in 1804): you really think who his grandfather claiming the title of King will left his only heir unmarried? He will be likely married in the 1795 (maybe if at that date Enghien had already decided he wanted marry only Charlotte, his OTL wife, in the end Condè can accept that wedding or forced his young grandson to marry another woman) and so in 1804 will likely had heirs (and in any case he will be keep far away from the reach of Napoleon so his OTL death will be butterflied). If the Duchess of Bourbon will die on guillottine in 1793/1794 her husband will be the titular Dauphin of France, widow with only a son and under 40 years old so he also will remarry quickly.
 
It doesn't seem clear to me why you think Angouleme and Berry and Orleans's sons are going to get executed. None of them is the direct heir so long as Louis XVII is alive, and he doesn't die until well after the Terror is over. Isn't imprisonment for the children far more likely than actual execution? The fact that Orléans's younger sons were actually prisoners OTL gives me a hard time believing that such a thing would happen.

I'm also not sure who you think would be watching Chartres to prevent him from fleeing. He went over to the Austrians along with the commander of the army. How would this be prevented?
 
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