CaliGuy
Banned
I thought that Kazakhstan lost a quarter of its population in its 1930s famine(s) and collectivization, though?Kazakhstan's losses weren't particularly terrible by Soviet standards.
I thought that Kazakhstan lost a quarter of its population in its 1930s famine(s) and collectivization, though?Kazakhstan's losses weren't particularly terrible by Soviet standards.
OK; makes sense.Sure, but then by also making Libya an attractive settlement colony within the Italian-phone world for people that would have otherwise moved to the US to find work.
without a ww2 they would have far less actually. no illegal annexation of parts of germany (and the genocide of germans connected to that).In Poland, the government actually wondered themselves about their population without a Second World War and came up with the demand, that their representation in European institutions should not be based on their OTL Population of slightly below 40 Million, but on a hypothetical 66-million-Poland from an alternate timeline.
[http://www.zeit.de/online/2007/26/stimmrecht-polen-weltkrieg]
Serbia is another country which suffered massively demographically especially in WW1 and then to a lesser degree in WW2.
The non-Polish locals--which comprised most of the population there--were expelled from the Recovered Territories after the end of World War II, though.without a ww2 they would have far less actually. no illegal annexation of parts of germany (and the genocide of germans connected to that).
without ww2 far less area.
Agreed.But one country might be Paraguay. Without or lesser devastating War of the Triple Alliance population would be markable higher.
Didn't Mao's promotion of high fertility somewhat compensate for the later One Child Policy, though? After all, China could have avoided the OCP but also began developing and industrializing earlier, thus resulting in its fertility rate naturally beginning to fall earlier.Yeah, in terms of sheer numbers of extra people (though maybe not percentages) this most certainly tops every other suggestion by far. The Chinese government estimates 400 million births were prevented by the policy.
That is certainly true. I just assumed all things being equal though, as demography is complicated stuff and I didn't have time to try and figure out the effects of an earlier demographic transition on everything else when I made the post.Didn't Mao's promotion of high fertility somewhat compensate for the later One Child Policy, though? After all, China could have avoided the OCP but also began developing and industrializing earlier, thus resulting in its fertility rate naturally beginning to fall earlier.
The natives really didn't have a choice and would have been quickly outnumbered by Italian immigrants if there were the jobs and infrastructure to support them.OK; makes sense.
Also, if the natives would have actually tolerated it, an Italian-controlled Libya might have been better than what actually happened to Libya in our TL. Of course--like in Algeria--getting the natives to tolerate this would have probably been the hard part.
Would having Russian Tsar Alexander III apply his Russification policies to Finland help with this?
Immigration to Sweden too in later times.
But why the US might be anti-Finnish is odd. Because the Finns had a disproportionately high membership in the Socialist Party and other socialist groups? That would fall under some sort of proto-Red Scare which would have huge repercussions not just for Finnish immigration, but other races (Italians most likely).
Racism.
MEMORANDUM.
John Sven was born in Finland and calls himself a Finn. He now petitions the Court to be admitted a citizen of the United States. The granting of this petition is opposed by the Government on the ground that being a Finn he is a Mongolian and not a “White-person” within the meaning of Sec.2169. United States Sev.Stat., which provides that “The provisions of this title shall apply to aliens being free white persons and to aliens of African nativity and to, persons of African descent.”
According to-ethnologists, the Finns in very remote times were of Mongol origin; the various, groupings of the human race -into families is arbitrary, and, as respects any particular people, is not permanent but is subject- to change_, and modification through the influence of climate, employment, intermarriage, and other causes. There are indications that central and western Europe was at one time over-run by the Finns; some of their stock remained, but their racial characteristics were entirely lost in their remote descendants, who now are in no danger of being classed as Mongols. The Osmanlis, said to be of Mongol extraction, are now among the purest and best types of the Caucasian race. Changes are constantly going on, and thrice occurring in the lapse of a few hundred years with any people may be very great.
The chief physical characteristics of the Mongolians pre as follows: They are short of stature, with little hair on the body or face; they have yellow-brown skins, black eyes, black hair, short flat noses, and oblique eyes.. In actual experience we sometimes, though rarely, see natives of Finland whose eyes are slightly oblique. We sometimes see them with sparse beards and sometimes with flat noses; but Finns with a yellow or brown or yellow brown skin or with black eyes or black hair would be an unusual sight. They are almost universally of light skin, blue or gray eyes, and light hair. No people of foreign birth applying in this section of the country’ for the full rights of citizenship arc lighter skinned than those born in Finland. In stature they are quite up, to the average. Confessedly Finland has often been over-run by the teutons, and by other branches of the human family who, with their descendants, have remained within her borders and are now called Finns. They are in the main indistinguishable in their physical characteristics from those of purer Finnish blood. Intermarriages have been frequent over a very long period of time. If the Finns were originally Mongels, modifying influences have continued until they are now among the whitest people in Europe. It would, therefore, require a most exhaustive tracing of family history to determine whether any particular individual born in Finland had or had not a remote Mongol ancestry. This, of course, cannot be done, and was not, intended. The question is not whether a person had or had not such an ancestry, but Whether he is now a “white person” within the meaning of that term as generally understood. This is the practical construction which has been uniformly been placed upon the law, so far as I am advised. Under such law Finns have always been admitted to citizenship, and there is no occasion now to change the construction.
The applicant is without doubt a white person within the true intent and meaning of such law. The objections, therefore, in my opinion should be over-ruled, and it will be so ordered.
W.A.Cant, Judge. Jan.17.1908.
http://www.genealogia.fi/emi/art/article257e.htmAmazing that the modern-day "Finns = Mongols" meme on the Internet was serious enough for the courthouse at one point. If we have the court decision (and appeals) go the other way, then there would be a huge impact on not just Finns.
But I think any real anti-Finnish racism (they did lynch a Finnish man during WWI, but I believe other whites were lynched under similar premises) would mainly be a reaction against Finnish American membership in the Socialist Party. Eugene Debs's Socialist Party had a disproportionate amount of immigrants as members (of course, at an era when about a quarter of Americans were foreign born).
But you have to factor in mortality rates, life expectancy and all that other stuff to estimate the population impact.Yeah, in terms of sheer numbers of extra people (though maybe not percentages) this most certainly tops every other suggestion by far. The Chinese government estimates 400 million births were prevented by the policy.
Couldn't having half a billion more people cause India to have severe overpopulation problems, though?But you have to factor in mortality rates, life expectancy and all that other stuff to estimate the population impact.
Personally I think an India that had vaguely efficient government committed to delivery of basic medical services would be a good candidate for the number one spot. In the fifties and sixties India was running at over 4.5 million child deaths per year. Reduce that and you start to add a lot of kids. Then on top of that maternal death rates of some horrific proportion reduce, deaths from infectious disease reduce, etc etc etc. and the population starts snowballing even more. India is almost the worlds most populous country despite its horrendous failings in public health, I can easily see an extra half billion or more given a less dysfunctional system.
Wow ... just wow; indeed, this certainly shows just how much the U.S. has advanced over the last 109 years!Racism.
MEMORANDUM.
John Sven was born in Finland and calls himself a Finn. He now petitions the Court to be admitted a citizen of the United States. The granting of this petition is opposed by the Government on the ground that being a Finn he is a Mongolian and not a “White-person” within the meaning of Sec.2169. United States Sev.Stat., which provides that “The provisions of this title shall apply to aliens being free white persons and to aliens of African nativity and to, persons of African descent.”
According to-ethnologists, the Finns in very remote times were of Mongol origin; the various, groupings of the human race -into families is arbitrary, and, as respects any particular people, is not permanent but is subject- to change_, and modification through the influence of climate, employment, intermarriage, and other causes. There are indications that central and western Europe was at one time over-run by the Finns; some of their stock remained, but their racial characteristics were entirely lost in their remote descendants, who now are in no danger of being classed as Mongols. The Osmanlis, said to be of Mongol extraction, are now among the purest and best types of the Caucasian race. Changes are constantly going on, and thrice occurring in the lapse of a few hundred years with any people may be very great.
The chief physical characteristics of the Mongolians pre as follows: They are short of stature, with little hair on the body or face; they have yellow-brown skins, black eyes, black hair, short flat noses, and oblique eyes.. In actual experience we sometimes, though rarely, see natives of Finland whose eyes are slightly oblique. We sometimes see them with sparse beards and sometimes with flat noses; but Finns with a yellow or brown or yellow brown skin or with black eyes or black hair would be an unusual sight. They are almost universally of light skin, blue or gray eyes, and light hair. No people of foreign birth applying in this section of the country’ for the full rights of citizenship arc lighter skinned than those born in Finland. In stature they are quite up, to the average. Confessedly Finland has often been over-run by the teutons, and by other branches of the human family who, with their descendants, have remained within her borders and are now called Finns. They are in the main indistinguishable in their physical characteristics from those of purer Finnish blood. Intermarriages have been frequent over a very long period of time. If the Finns were originally Mongels, modifying influences have continued until they are now among the whitest people in Europe. It would, therefore, require a most exhaustive tracing of family history to determine whether any particular individual born in Finland had or had not a remote Mongol ancestry. This, of course, cannot be done, and was not, intended. The question is not whether a person had or had not such an ancestry, but Whether he is now a “white person” within the meaning of that term as generally understood. This is the practical construction which has been uniformly been placed upon the law, so far as I am advised. Under such law Finns have always been admitted to citizenship, and there is no occasion now to change the construction.
The applicant is without doubt a white person within the true intent and meaning of such law. The objections, therefore, in my opinion should be over-ruled, and it will be so ordered.
W.A.Cant, Judge. Jan.17.1908.