Countries other than Macedon that could have "pulled an Alexander"?

Skallagrim

Banned
The big problem is that it requires both the right situation and the right individual. We can find the right kind of situation. In Alexander's case, it was the fact that his father had been preparing for a Persian campaign, and the Achaemenid Empire had just had an internal war. Yet Philip would not have done what Alexander did. If Alexander had not existed, had Philip lived on... would we consider that moment in history to be potentially so suited to this kind of scenario? I imagine ATL discussion about how much Philip could have conquered. I don't think there would be any speculation on a hypothetical super-gifted ATL son.

Someone like Alexander is hard to just make up, is what I mean.

(An interesting scenario might be one where Cortes does his conquistador-rampage, but then Spain gets embroiled in some horrible European war and cannot support further colonial efforts for some time. As a result, Cortes declares himself king, then croaks, and his nascent empire falls apart into warring factions. Depending on how long he's in charge, you could see cultural influence from the conquistador elite.)
 
To fulfill the OP, I think it is only right that the Empire in question conquer half the known world. To be fair to Alexander, he essentially thought he really did this (though "the whole known world" is a gross exaggeration.)

As for the OP, the Mongols immediately come to mind as Ghengis Khan only lived to be 65. He could have lived another 20 years, and if he did, he would have conquered China and Europe, leaving about half the world left as far as he knew it (India, Middle East, and Africa, whose size he could not appreciate). A Ghengis Khan that dies at 85 likely has already tons of sons chomping at the bit for power and a good split could have happened, with the Mongols in power for centuries with some luck (like the Macedonians before them.)

Another curious case, IMHO, are the Russians in the 20th century (wrong Forum, but true nonetheless.) Russia, if she avoided WW1 and sufficiently industrialized, was an absolute powerhouse. If, ITTL, Russia attacked the Austria-Hungary only and otherwise allowed the Germans to beat up on France, they could have delayed the Germans by doing a defense-in-depth. Eventually, the Central Powers lose, or if they win, Russia is pretty intact anyway. Without collapsing and rapidly expanding industrialization, Russia is one world war away from practical world domination. IOTL, the USSR could have ended up with much of China, all of Korea, and even parts of Japan if the A-Bomb was not invented. ITTL, the Tsar with the right circumstances (resurgent Germany bent on being stupid, Japan also bent on being stupid), ATL Russia can end up with much of continental Europe and Japanese/Chinese territory. WIth butterflies, thrown in Iran and the Middle East. The result is the Tsar controls almost half of the Earth's landmass, and while after his death the empire may be split up for easier administration, I am fascinated how the 20th century could have easily been Russia's or Germany's century, and not the USA's.
 
Last edited:
Korea seems to me to could have pulled something like this many times trough its history, mostly against Jurchen and northern steppe peoples, but as well possibly in a divided China. I'm not knowledgable enough, tough, to say how and when.
Eh, most of the Korean dynasties either didn't focus on military matters (was a secondary concern to studying the classics, same with engineering and applied sciences) or militarized too late against enemies that were way more powerful (the Joseon had a nice military, though it was after Japan and the Manchu ravaged it three times in 50 years and the Qing had most of China in their control). Goguryeo's military might was impressive but internal problems, enemies on both sides, and just logistics made that all for naught in the end.

Issue is that controlling the northern steppe was logistically challenging (I recall one dynasty setting up forts in southern Manchuria but giving up on them because it was too expensive for the perceived (non)benefit) and the steppe hordes are a bit challenging to fight off (the Chinese weren't able to, what chance did Korea have?) as the Liao, Mongols, Manchu, etc. showed. Plus, most of Korea's population has always been centered in the central (Han River) or south, with the very north being frontier for most of Korea's history. And, again, they didn't care much about military matters (hence the Imjin War, where the Japanese were able to nearly fully occupy the whole peninsula within a year thanks to the Japanese experience with war and the Korean's lack thereof) and mostly kept it to border skirmishes with the Manchu. Not many wars in Korea, all things considered (compared to Japan or Europe) but they all ended with horrific results because the government wouldn't fold when their armies would (Mongol invasions, Imjin War). Also, the vast majority were defensive wars.

It's worth noting that the Goryeo did try to take back the Liaodong peninsula (take back in that it belonged to the Goguryeo from whom they took their name and the Balhae Kingdom) when the Yuan dynasty lost control of China. But then the Ming under the Hongwu Emperor weren't pleased at the notion. The Goryeo king sent General Yi Seonggye over to fight them off, Yi saw it as a suicidal task (because fighting China is a bit tough when manpower and money aren't on your side), turned back and launch his coup that ended with the Joseon deposing the Goryeo.

So it's possible, just you'd need a very different mindset from what most of the people who've ever controlled Korea had (or better luck).

And, in the end, control over a significant part of China for a long period of time would probably end with the Han people of Korea becoming Sinicized into the Han Chinese the way the Manchu did.
 
Is it conceivable that a large Gallic Confederation could have united and taken control of the Western Mediterranean? Brennus did sack Rome in the early 4th Century, and Massilia could potentially be brought into an alliance and form the nucleus of a fleet.
 
How would that not just lead to either a Dutch dynasty ruling England, or being deposed? England seems too small to have diadochi states.
Nah, I think he meant for the United Provinces to conquer England, take its overseas territories, use the base to create a massive empire, and promptly collapse upon it becoming extraordinarily unwieldy. I might be wrong though.
 
With a skilled military leader, what are some countries (during any time in human history from the invention of agriculture to the 20th century) that could have "pulled an Alexander"; that is, conquering a larger empire in its near-entirety during one ruler's reign, and then collapsing into successor states that are nonetheless demographically strong enough to lead to a new cultural and administrative era influenced by the conqueror country?
Charlemagne comes to mind, make him a bit more successful in Spain and Germany, and conquer the Avars earlier, and I'd say he's practically a 1:1 match for Alexander.
 
Post-Sengoku Japan has the mindset necessary I think.
Just need to make them amenable to employ Korean and Chinese auxiliaries (like the Qing did 20-ish years later) and they might be able to conquer China as a whole. Difficult, but justifiable.
 
Nah, I think he meant for the United Provinces to conquer England, take its overseas territories, use the base to create a massive empire, and promptly collapse upon it becoming extraordinarily unwieldy. I might be wrong though.
that was exact my thought, William III was extraordinary in his organising skills (the whole invasion was only exceeded in size by d-day, and it tool mere months to organise) and controlling skills, the moment he goes poof the UP will fall victim to its usual governmental infighting, goes stagnant, and will start falling apart at the seams until it will have size somewhat bigger than otl (slightly more colonies kept)
 
Is it conceivable that a large Gallic Confederation could have united and taken control of the Western Mediterranean? Brennus did sack Rome in the early 4th Century, and Massilia could potentially be brought into an alliance and form the nucleus of a fleet.
Well, it's not unthinable in the form of a Gallic dynasty of an hellenistic kingdom or a Gallic state (as in a stat originating from part of Gaul) but I don't really think it's possible in the form of an unified Gaul turning imperial.

First, Massalia had already trouble keeping Celto-Ligurians at bay (especially the confederation of Salyes) to the point Romans eventually had to clean the mess. You could argue thas the city and its subordinated ones (Nikaia, for exemple) could have been taken by Salyes, maybe in the IIIrd century BCE, but even if it happened (for various reasons, it strikes me as unlikely, notably the logistics of taking on a maritime hub by land) you'd probably see something akin to Scythian takeover of Crimean cities.

As for the Gallic states, there's a small map of these in the IInd century BCE. (Before that, it's a mess, and not remotly as unified, AFAWK)
IOMFnGd.png


Arverni (Grey-Green) were probably the best placed at this point to form a stable archê in Gaul, and had a certain mediterranean tropism before that the aformentioned Salyes pressure on Massalia (yellow) basically unleashed this. (Arverni being roped into this by Allobroges, that were roped into this by Voconces, that were roped into this by Salyes.)
But even these didn't formed a pan-Gallic confederation, which was probably as foreign to them (or other Gauls) than a pan-Hellenic confederation was for Greeks.

Now, could Arverni (or another confederation) could pull a Macedonia regionally? Maybe, altough on a passably hellenized form, and without guarantee.
A good departure point, IMO, would be a Roman defeat during the Second Punic War
 
Last edited:
I don't think an imperial Gallic confederation is likely , but I also don't think it's considerably more implausible than the OTL rise of Makedon. A barely urbanized backwater kingdom suddenly discovers rich mines, creates the best army of the ancient world from scratch, subjugates its neighbors under not one, but two great hero-kings, then leads its still smarting allies on a series of campaigns that destroy the most powerful empire in the world and take them to the gates of India? Let's be real, if someone wrote that as a TL, it would be denounced as ASB, space-filling empire to the extreme.

I can at least imagine the Arverni subjugating their immediate neighbors, take control of the Rhone, getting into a position to snowball the rest of Gaul; if they make contact with a dissident political faction in Massalia, the gates might be opened to them, then they can continue to Nikia and Genoa. They need a Great Captain to pull it off, but destroying the Roman army in a decisive battle on the West Coast of Italy while dissident Socii/Makedon/Greeks/Carthage stir trouble elsewhere, then marching on Rome itself doesn't strike me as more implausible than Alexander taking the Great King head on in the open field and utterly crushing him.
 

Skallagrim

Banned
Considering that there were plenty of Roman leaders who wanted to imitate Alexander, and that some of them had rotten luck, it is also a possibility that one of them gets really lucky instead. As in: Julius Caesar lives on and his Parthian campaign is an astounding success. Or Marcus Antonius catches a big break when he tries it. Or Pompey (perhaps the most deliberate of the Alexander-imitators) wins the Roman power struggle and tries his own Persian adventure to great success. Or Hadrian's eastern conquests are retained, a century of wars with Parthia follows, and some ATL later Emperor succeeds in conquering all of Parthia. Or Julian the Apostate succeeds, since he tried this, too...

Plenty of options. The key factor being that with exceptional luck, a dashing conquest is actually possible. Holding Persia is not, of course. But the beaty of this particular scenario is that holding it isn't even what we want. We just want some Roman to conquer Persia, declare himself the Great King of all the east, and then die so that his vast empire can fracture into warring successor states. Well, that can be arranged. If the chaos is big enough, the whole Roman Empire may well be caught up in the resulting wars, and also fracture.

It would be a splendid mess, and the total chaos would be a nice counterpoint to the initial Roman-wanking during the actual conquest.
 
Last edited:
I but I also don't think it's considerably more implausible than the OTL rise of Makedon.
Macedonia didn't began as an imperial Greek confederation : far from being backwater (rather under constant pressure) it was a model of the ethnic Greek states that co-existed with poleis since the archaic period. Meaning it structurated itself early on, even if for a while under the dominance of Persian Empire. It benefitted, furthermore,from the presence of a develloped shore which was in direct contact with the "worthwhile" Greece so to speak, but whom protection was significantly wkeaned by the crisis of the politeis in the IVth century. (A good argument could be made against the rise of Macedonia in the case of an Athenian clear victory against Sparta). So saying from "scratch" is a big exageration.

Meanwhile, Gallic states develloped in a roughly similar timeframe, and as Helladic states never really fancied the idea of a Pan-Gallic unity for all the unifying strutures existing (cultural, religious, linguistic). More over, the bigger Gallic hegemonies and archeis followed a mediterranean tropism more or less affirmed, meaning a North/South development (really roughly). It's more or less the case with Arverni, and obvious with Aedui. I they suddenly went in a conquering spree; which was rather against the political traditions : you mentioned the brenns ("Brennus" and "Brennos" of Rome and Delphes), which is the title of warchiefs, not leaders of a settled people; then South it would be. From there, you might end up with a particularily strong complex chiefdom, but the sheer weight of Gallic political substructures (which were rather participating, than ignored, by the political constructions) would make an imperial drive rather hard, while it would be easier than unifying Gaul as a whole.

I'll of course gloss over the demographical and territorial difference between Gaul and Greece, as it's doubtlessly obvious to you.

Let's be real, if someone wrote that as a TL, it would be denounced as ASB, space-filling empire to the extreme.
"There's people that couldn't for their life understood how hegemonic empires can rise quickly" isn't the same than "It's ASB but in real life",tough. To be honest, I find this to be a really weak argument, in spite of how many people repeat it.

I can at least imagine the Arverni subjugating their immediate neighbors, take control of the Rhone
As the events of the IInd century BCE points, it was hard for an hegemonic power to appear without banding everyone in sight against it. Arverni trying to take against everyone in the region (which, must I point, where were most of the strongest peoples and archê, such as Aedui, Allobroges, Vocontii, etc.) would be difficult.Rome managed to pull it because it was...well, Rome complete with comically disproportionned resources and military.

The social structures of Gaul basically made hard to gather a large army, not only their nature as aristocratic states, but as well cultural features such as Druidism, as Druids more or less played the role that the Church did in the Xth century and the "Peace of God" meaning regulating warfare and finger-pointing whoever was a dick. While warfare was relatively current in Gaul (altough not endemic), it was closer to a political strong-arming competition than annexionist.

if they make contact with a dissident political faction in Massalia, the gates might be opened to them
This is particularily not going to happen : if anything Massaliotes could agree on, it was that the balance that kept Celto-Ligurians at bay was precarious. Massalia as an archê already lost significant points, such as Arles (Theliné) in the IIIrd century, and their partners in the Gulf of Lion (such as Elysices) were disappearing. I think it's fair to say there was a strong political-identitarian point there, and ancient authors make pretty clear that Massaliotes were wary of their neighbours (Silius Italicus, notably)

To be honest, such turns of events looks like a RTW game (I say this without mockery, I did a game that was suspiciously similar) but makes little sense in the IInd century BCE.
 
England in India - maybe not demographically but certainly culturally

Major Forster, a man who in the course of a single summer conquered India from Calcutta to Madras, had he been an Alexander or Napoleon his praises would ring to the heavens. But as he is an ordinary English major of foot, no one has ever heard of him.

Possibly Foster
 

Deleted member 67076

Someone from the Denianke Dynasty in Senegal. Following Morocco's invasion of Songhai that empire was a shell of itself that imploded. If the Fulo play their cards right, get better access to gunpowder weapons and cavalry (possibly through money from cotton plantations?), then the Sahel is ripe for the taking.

The demographic change would be akin to the Fulani Jihads but 100 years earlier.
 
Top