Could you plausibly claim that the US provoked Japan before Pearl Harbor

McPherson

Banned
Dunnoh if this is entirely within the purview of this forum, since this is OTL history and AH (mods, please delete this if this violates any rules, though I tried to check if it does before posting this and i don’t think it does). But I got into an online argument with someone who claims that Japan’s attack on Pearl Harbor was partially provoked by US actions such as the embargoes, lend-lease to China, re-armament, and stationing the Pacific fleet in Pearl Harbor. I argued that those acts can’t be seen as provocations against Japan because Japan’s aggression against its neighbors made at least some international response inevitable and the Japanese were aware of that in advance, that some of those actions can’t even be seen as provocation anyway (such as re-armament), and anyway that the main reason for Japan’s attack was to seize Indonesia and Malaysia, not pre-emptive strike against the US. She claimed that the US was not neutral as they were arming the Chinese and thus not innocent in this, and I claimed that this doesn’t in any way justify the Japanese to attack the US and that anyway it wasn’t even the main reason for Pearl Harbor and therefore moot. The argument soon became very nasty (on both sides admittedly) so no further progress could be achieved.

Do you think it’s reasonable to say that the US provoked Japan by embargo, lend-lease, moving the fleet to Hawaii etc. and therefore Japan was partially justified? Or would you agree that those shouldn’t count as provocations?

There is a lot of confused thinking on this subject. The idea of provocation has to be defined in terms that goes beyond the Post WWI or interwar period. Therefore I would suggest that US-Japanese international causes of tensions, and the consequences thereof, have to go back at least a century before WWII minimum.

a. It must be understood, that the Japanese and the Koreans were regarded and sort of treated as akin to East Asian pirates by the Americans, as well as other Western Imperialist powers seeking to make inroads in China around the beginning decades of the 19th Century. 1853 is often taught to American schoolchildren as the year when Mathew Perry's squadron "opened Japan". What is not taught well, was that the Japanese, a couple of centuries earlier, been subjected to a campaign of foreign cultural imperialist proselytization that sought to change the nature of Japanese culture as it existed at that time. The ruling Shogunate resisted the attempts to change Japanese sopcial and religious mores by closing the country to such foreign attempts and they had enough power to make the "western barbarians" back off.
b. The Japanese remembered this imperialist attempt to destabilize their country and it became a matter of government policy to resist such imperialist aggression against Japan proper.
c. After Perry, a representative of a second rate power little more regarded than Spain, showed up to demand that; "American sailors washed up on Japanese shores not be executed as invaders." , and incidentally we, Americans", want a treaty concession trade port of entry, like we have in China, so you can be a captive market." Well...
d. The Japanese spent a TOUGH couple of decades deciding what to do. They decided if they could not beat US, they would have to join US in the race to become capitalist imperialist interlopers in China. This reform is called the Meiji Restoration.
e. Insofar as the United States is concerned, it should be noted that at this time, along with the importation of cheap Chinese labor to build American railroads in the Pacific states west of the Rocky Mountains, there was an influx of Japanese immigration that started as a trickle in the 1870s, but which picked up momentum from the 1870s onward.
f. Then came the Russo-Japanese War and the first modern instance of East Asians defeating Europeans in a widely publicized and massive military disaster which is widely publicized in the United States, and I mean the Russians lost BADLY. Never mind that the Chinese had beaten the French first. This was the Yellow Peril news that Hearst pushed.
g. At the Versailles Conference, when the Japanese asked politely for the insertion in the League of Nations Charter, which that piece of racist evildoer human scum, Woodrow Wilson, was pushing on the reluctant victor allies, one nation of which was Japan; the Japanese wanted that racial equality clause, to legally define in international law, that so called social Darwinist claptrap theories about one race being superior to other races was just that; claptrap and utter rubbish. The chief opponent to that clause was not necessarily the British, or the French or the even the Italians (The Italian government supported the Japanese position.); it was that rat bastard, Woodrow Wilson. That bolo, he made, put Japan and the US on a permanent enmity basis, mostly on mutually induced racial based hatreds and bigotries. I have to write as an American, that the Japanese were more sinned against than sinning in that regard. On this specific point, the opinion cannot vary. The racism was all too real and the acts the US government carried out on its end made the problem much worse.
h. Then there is China. The Americans teach, that they were disinterested neutrals trying to keep China from being carved up and parceled out like Africa was among the Europeans, during "The Berlin Conference." Bull. The Americans had created a lodgement in southern central China just as imperialistic and exploitative (American Concession (Shanghai)) as the equivalent British one. In fact the Spanish American War of 1898 could be seen as an extension of "Manifest Destiny" to bring American influence to bear on China up close and personal. The Japanese so saw it, but the Russians were closer, were in China in force and were building up a land army and navy threat to Metropolitan Japan. Remember Perry in 1853?

I. Japan saw her safety lay in dominating China and forcing out the western imperialists. Russia first (1906). Then Germany (1915). That left only 2 imperialist threats... the British and then the Americans.

Japan's foreign policy in peace and war must be seen as in their eyes from a. to i. This does not excuse Japanese war-crimes at all and it does not change the fact that the Japanese practiced the same kind of evil that the western imperialist powers, including Americans, did in the western Pacific Ocean and east Asia. The Japanese were just as racist, just as much in the rape, pillage, burn, loot, murder for fun, and impose foreign customs and race based social mores and economic exploitations and inequalities "game", as the other imperialist powers.

I hate racism and imperialism and the hypocrisy its practitioners teach as history and as social science. Can you tell?

McP.
 
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Nationalists in China claim that the US never gave a shit about fighting Japan because they continued to trade with them until Pearl Harbor.
 

McPherson

Banned
True enough. Same argument can be leveled in the US trade with Germany. Yet, the end results were that the Americans were part of the coalition that defeated both nations. So... is the trade argument valid if the military acts, planning and overall foreign policy seen, as used, are otherwise in intent?

Good question. Henry Ford does business with the Germans; while FDR plots the Berlin Maniac's demise. Wish I had a good answer.
 
True enough. Same argument can be leveled in the US trade with Germany. Yet, the end results were that the Americans were part of the coalition that defeated both nations. So... is the trade argument valid if the military acts, planning and overall foreign policy seen, as used, are otherwise in intent?

Good question. Henry Ford does business with the Germans; while FDR plots the Berlin Maniac's demise. Wish I had a good answer.

I think Ford was just being a good capitalist. He wasn't the only one either, during 1943 US executives and engineers of ITT left the US by covert means, ducking the FBI and had a conference in Portugal to discuss finances and opportunities with their European opposite numbers, this included reps from C.Lorenz AG who were working on German radar and ITT owned 25% of Focke Wulf. The FBI would have freaked if they knew about it as ITT had multiple military contracts including work on the Manhattan Project, I doubt the Gestapo would have been happy about it either.
 
By that point the IJA pretty much considered China their back yard and personal preserve. There was no way they were going to allow any Western powers (particularly the British) any more influence on Chinese affairs than they already had.

We are talking about the 1920s, not the 30s. It wasn't about the British influence over China but about curtailing the Nationalists. It was the civilian government that refused the British idea despite of the military's ardent call to arms.
 
Japan's foreign policy in peace and war must be seen as in their eyes from a. to i. This does not excuse Japanese war-crimes at all and it does not change the fact that the Japanese practiced the same kind of evil that the western imperialist powers, including Americans, did in the western Pacific Ocean and east Asia. The Japanese were just as racist, just as much in the rape, pillage, burn, loot, murder for fun, and impose foreign customs and race based social mores and economic exploitations and inequalities "game", as the other imperialist powers.

I hate racism and imperialism and the hypocrisy its practitioners teach as history and as social science. Can you tell?

McP.

I'm sorry but as bad as the Western Powers acted in China, Japan was far worse. There is a reason the Japanese are still widely hated in East Asia. For all its faults the West did not conduct head chopping contests,nor use Chinese people as targets for bayonet practice or firearms practice, did not force Chinese boys to rape their own relatives at bayonet point etc. Comparing the two comes dangerously close to Japanese Apologism. There is bad and there is worse and Japan was far worse.
 
I'm sorry but as bad as the Western Powers acted in China, Japan was far worse. There is a reason the Japanese are still widely hated in East Asia. For all its faults the West did not conduct head chopping contests,nor use Chinese people as targets for bayonet practice or firearms practice, did not force Chinese boys to rape their own relatives at bayonet point etc. Comparing the two comes dangerously close to Japanese Apologism. There is bad and there is worse and Japan was far worse.

I have to agree that as oppressive as the western powers were during the late 19th and early 20th centuries, they pale in comparison to what the Japanese inflicted during WWII. One of the stories from the Rape of Nanjing was that the Japanese occupiers were so terrible that even the Nazi consulate in the foreign quarter was horrified with what they had done.

Or you can point to what was popularly phrased as the 'Three Alls' policy, the Japanese response to a communist led Hundred Regiments Offensive in Hebei Province.

Or you can point to Unit 731, which tested chemical and biological weapons on Chinese civilians.

You can point all you like to how the US baited Japan to war with the oil embargo, but while we can point to various failures and hypocrisies of the US in its relations with japan in the years prior to Wwii, in this instance, Japan absolutely needed to be stopped.
 

marathag

Banned
he Japanese remembered this imperialist attempt to destabilize their country and it became a matter of government policy to resist such imperialist aggression against Japan proper.
'Opening' also meant that shipwrecked Western Sailors wouldn't be killed outright or imprisoned, as well.as normal Diplomatic Relations.
Again, note lack of US Concessions or Treaty Ports
 

marathag

Banned
Nationalists in China claim that the US never gave a shit about fighting Japan because they continued to trade with them until Pearl Harbor.
US was famously Isolationist and Neutral at the time, yet had US private relief efforts, plus what Chennault was doing before the Flying Tigers, and Curtiss have the Chinese purchase the Right to assemble Hawks after purchasing a number of unarmed 'demonstrators' with fixed gear that were superior to the Ki-10 and A5M.
 

McPherson

Banned
I'm sorry but as bad as the Western Powers acted in China, Japan was far worse. There is a reason the Japanese are still widely hated in East Asia. For all its faults the West did not conduct head chopping contests,nor use Chinese people as targets for bayonet practice or firearms practice, did not force Chinese boys to rape their own relatives at bayonet point etc. Comparing the two comes dangerously close to Japanese Apologism. There is bad and there is worse and Japan was far worse.

1. Balangiga.
2. Filipino American War.
3. US operational methods in the Filipino American War.

I'm not going to sugar coat the Japanese. Biological warfare, the Rape of Nanking, massacres and executions, wholesale rape, pillage, burn and loot did happen. Yet, in US Congressional hearings around 1901; the claim is made in that American Congressional record that 1,500,000 Filipinos were murdered out a total population of 9 million.

One in six Filipinos alive in 1898 is dead by 1901 is the result; if you work the math out. I think that conclusion is a "slight exaggeration". My research for my ATL storyline places the OTL slaughter at closer to 700,000; or 1 in 13 Filipinos, mostly military age men and young boys "civilized by Krag, 'neath the starry flag".

The point is, that bad as the Spanish were, from whom the Americans "liberated" the Filipino people; this result was something of an order of magnitude worse, that the Filipinos suffered at American hands, even at the conservative figure of 600,000 murdered as reported in the New York Times at the time.

This is not Japanese Apologism.

McP.
 
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1. Balangiga.
2. Filipino American War.
3. US operational methods in the Filipino American War.

I'm not going to sugar coat the Japanese. Biological warfare, the Rape of Nanking, massacres and executions, wholesale rape, pillage, burn and loot did happen. Yet, in US Congressional hearings around 1901; the claim is made in that American Congressional record that 1,500,000 Filipinos were murdered out a total population of 9 million.

One in six Filipinos alive in 1898 is dead by 1901 is the result; if you work the math out. I think that conclusion is a "slight exaggeration". My research for my ATL storyline places the OTL slaughter at closer to 700,000; or 1 in 13 Filipinos, mostly military age men and young boys "civilized by Krag, 'neath the starry flag".

The point is, that bad as the Spanish were, from whom the Americans "liberated" the Filipino people; this result was something of an order of magnitude worse, that the Filipinos suffered at American hands, even at the conservative figure of 600,000 murdered as reported in the New York Times.

This is not Japanese Apologism.

McP.

I never said that the American occupation of the PI was in any way "good". However even in 1901 it was considered such a scandal it came up before the US Congress. Even in 1901 it was busy enough not to do hearings on a whim. No such reaction came from the Japanese Government. There was nothing comparable to congressional hearings in Japan.
 
I never said that the American occupation of the PI was in any way "good". However even in 1901 it was considered such a scandal it came up before the US Congress. Even in 1901 it was busy enough not to do hearings on a whim. No such reaction came from the Japanese Government. There was nothing comparable to congressional hearings in Japan.
Well there was, or at least attempts at it. Then some navy cadets murdered the prime minister and were let off with what amounted to a slap on the wrist from the supreme court. The Japanese parliament basically gave up trying after that.
 
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I'd say so. If you read Operation Snow you can see that things like the oil embargo and more were done with support from Soviet agents with the deliberate intention and the knowledge that Japan would go to war.

Does it count as provocation? I'm not sure, but if you give someone a choice of war or subservience, where choosing subservience results in a governmental overthrow and war then is it really a choice?

And their history goes back a long time, if the USA wanted to claim China for themselves then they should have done so, and perhaps negotiated with Japan who obviously has claim by proximity. Look at the USA racial laws and their treatment of Japan at Washington. The USA could certainly have put more effort into keeping Japan democratic but an independent democratic Japan is worse for the USA than a vassal state.
 
Note lack of actual US Concessions or Treaty Ports after the ACW.
I wasn't lumping the USA into the 99 problems China had or my spell checker on my phone has :)

I meant the UK, Portugal, Russians, Japanese, Portuguese and just about everyone else

China was used and abused to the point of instability both externally and internally
 
If embargoes are provocations, then yes. Otherwise, no.
Wendell,
There are embargoes, like, say embargoing luxury goods or goods with somewhat inferior substitutes. Then there's embargoing oil. Oil embargoes are more likely to precipitate war than pretty much any other variety.
 
Wendell,
There are embargoes, like, say embargoing luxury goods or goods with somewhat inferior substitutes. Then there's embargoing oil. Oil embargoes are more likely to precipitate war than pretty much any other variety.
Thus my point. If the oil and steel embargo was a provocation, then yes, bu it's not clear to me that it was.
 
Wendell,
There are embargoes, like, say embargoing luxury goods or goods with somewhat inferior substitutes. Then there's embargoing oil. Oil embargoes are more likely to precipitate war than pretty much any other variety.
Food as well
 
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