Could Warsaw ghetto uprisning more successful

Jason222

Banned
I could think few things happen might turn the tide Jews favor first reckless Jürgen Stroop, call in bomber likley uprising last lot longer guess uprising spread to entire city Warsaw. That big one could maybe chance things little uprising last long enough until Red Russia came in.
 
Model told Hitler to piss off when he was ordered to use the German Army to put down the uprising which left it pretty much to the SS to be carried out.... however Model did view those Poles that rose up and were in the way of the supply lines to his Army Group as a direct threat to his troops and did order a small number of his troops to ruthlessly clear that area.

Despite this, while commanding Army Group Centre, he refused to dispatch troops to put down the Warsaw uprising (a task that ultimately was carried out by the SS), viewing it as a rear-area matter.

He stated that the revolt arose from the mistreatment of the Polish population by the Nazis, and the army should have nothing to do with it. On the other hand, he showed no hesitation in clearing the Warsaw suburbs of Praga and Saska Kępa through which vital supply lines ran.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Model

Why does this matter? Lets just say the more successful the uprising the bigger the threat Model is apt to come to view it to his suppy lines and thus his men and the more likely he is to drop the hammer on the uprising.

In a much larger and more successful uprising unless the Poles personally promised him not to interfer with the supply lines to his troops he will use his Army Group to kill them and it would lead to death and destruction on a vastly larger and more significant scale then OTL.

Model wouldn't care less if the Poles did manage to beat and kill all the SS troops who Hitler and Himmler had to send against them..... But, if he believed the Poles who lets just say with added outside help and/or other factors managed to beat off the SS were directly threating 'his boys' by cutting off his suppy lines it would be entirely different story and lead to a monumental slaughter.
 
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Kongzilla

Banned
I hear Soviet Troops stopped right outside warsaw when the Uprisings were happening. Maybe have them lend a hand, I know the Kremlin didn't want to help but there might be a few officers willing to rush in and "Liberate"the Warsaw populace of Nazi oppression
 
I hear Soviet Troops stopped right outside warsaw when the Uprisings were happening. Maybe have them lend a hand, I know the Kremlin didn't want to help but there might be a few officers willing to rush in and "Liberate"the Warsaw populace of Nazi oppression

Not the same thing. OP was talking about the Warsaw ghetto uprising in January 1943, while the Warsaw uprising happened in August 1944.

Jason, Red Army was at Kursk and besieging 6th Armee at the time of Ghetto uprising. They could not get there even if the uprising lasted for months. While at best Ghetto had a week or two, wholesale Warsaw uprising or not. And Polish were not exactly friendly with Jews.
 
I could think few things happen might turn the tide Jews favor first reckless Jürgen Stroop, call in bomber likley uprising last lot longer guess uprising spread to entire city Warsaw. That big one could maybe chance things little uprising last long enough until Red Russia came in.

No way. The Polish Home Army planned to rise up immediately before the Red Army’s arrival. It was expected that they would only need to resist for several days – so obviously no one would even dream of doing so for the unknowable amount of time it would take for the Red Army to approach from the 1943 frontlines. The Home Army was well disciplined, and wouldn’t have spontaneously risen up on its own without orders.

I hear Soviet Troops stopped right outside warsaw when the Uprisings were happening. Maybe have them lend a hand, I know the Kremlin didn't want to help but there might be a few officers willing to rush in and "Liberate"the Warsaw populace of Nazi oppression

Defying Stalin like this? I can't see it happening.
 
1. Warsaw Ghetto Uprising =/= Warsaw Uprising. BTW, Warsaw Ghetto Uprising started in April 1943.However, the first armed actions of Jewish resistance took place in January 1943.
2. AFAIK the goal of the Ghetto Uprising was not to liberate Jews or whole Warsaw. The ghetto was being liquidated, its inhabitants/prisoners sent to death camps. The Jewish fighters wanted simply to die in combat taking as many Germans with them as they could instead of going as lambs to the slaughter. They might have had some hope to rescue at least some of the Jews but chances were slim.
3. There was no chance for the Ghetto Uprising to spread to all Warsaw; it would have been a suicide for Poles - with no chance at all for any outside help they would fail with disastrous losses. Polish Home Army was not suicidal.
4. Antisemitism among Poles was indeed a problem, although Home Army and Polish Underground State tried to fight it. Besides, Polish anisemitism had many faces - one of the founders of Żegota (Polish underground organisation created to rescue Jews), Zofia Kossak-Szczucka, was known antisemite before the war. In her "Protest" of 1942 she pretty much called Jews Polish enemies and in the same text called all Poles to help saving the Jews, since she considered it a dute of every Pole and Catholic. She also declared that anyone helping Germans in killing Jews or even accepting it had no moral right to call himself Polish and/or Catholic.
 
I hear Soviet Troops stopped right outside warsaw when the Uprisings were happening. Maybe have them lend a hand, I know the Kremlin didn't want to help but there might be a few officers willing to rush in and "Liberate"the Warsaw populace of Nazi oppression

The Red Army even if it had a great love for the Poles which it didn't (they did brutally attack Eastern Poland five years earlier) was terrified of Stalin to a level well beyond even the German Army was terrified of Hitler. Killing so many Russian officers in peace time kind of does that. The only way the Warsaw uprising is far more successful and potentally manages to fight off the SS is FDR demands that Stalin let them use Soviet airports or no more Lend Lease. He didn't do so and at that point I think he was to emotionally invested in Stalin to do anything like that.

The Soviet Union did not give permission to the Allies for use of its airports for those supply operations and thus the planes were forced to use bases in the United Kingdom and Italy which reduced their carrying weight and number of sorties. The Allies specific request for the use of landing strips made on 20 August was denied by Stalin on 22 August (he referred to the insurgents as 'a handful of criminals').

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lack_of_outside_support_during_the_Warsaw_Uprising

Stalin made clear he wanted to see the 'handfull of criminals' as he called the Poles who rose up killed by the SS as it would save Russia bullets from having to do it.

The Polish Home Army planned to rise up immediately before the Red Army’s arrival.

It would have been nice if the Poles had known Stalin's true intent.

If the Polish managed to fight off the SS... Stalin made clear he would order those 'criminals' who rose up slaughtered when he took Poland. Actually, this brings up an interesting possibility. Stalin makes clear he will cleanse Poland of the criminals over the radio after the Poles manage to beat the SS... Model is sacked for his refusal to attack Warsaw and letting things get so out of hand in Poland. But, decides his troops are loyal to him and with Poland out of control Hitler can't actually replace him. The Poles and whats left of Army Group Center ironically decide to both cooperate to fight to the death over the bloody remains of Poland. Model is able to crack a smile before he blows out his brains for having the chance to wage one last decient fight.

The Poles who rose up were caught between three potental foes. One Stalin who refused to let the Western Allies really helped their uprising and view them as criminals and a threat to his post war control of Poland... meaning they are dead if he wins. The SS which was the force that the Nazis had to use to put them down and Model who had no interest in putting them down and believed it was the Nazis fault for mistreating them thus causing them to rise up. Normally Model is not the kind of general who would tell his lead to piss off as he did, but at that point he no longer cared all that much and was emotionally getting ready to end his life.
 
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Jason222

Banned
One minor problem if Germany us bombers way trying crush Jews fighters they hit areas way outside Warsaw Ghetto. Those Heavy bomber hardly account so Pole get outrage home destroyed friend-fire. That I think might trigger Ghetto wise uprising. Hitler having to send more men,equipment and everything put this uprising down surly require have send force could used fight the Russia. Russia tactic reason decide to carry bomber raids own since Pole and Germany slaughter each why making fire work last longer.
 
One minor problem if Germany us bombers way trying crush Jews fighters they hit areas way outside Warsaw Ghetto. Those Heavy bomber hardly account so Pole get outrage home destroyed friend-fire. That I think might trigger Ghetto wise uprising. Hitler having to send more men,equipment and everything put this uprising down surly require have send force could used fight the Russia. Russia tactic reason decide to carry bomber raids own since Pole and Germany slaughter each why making fire work last longer.

The Allies wanted to use the Russian air strips to drop supplies and weapons to the Polish fighters not bomb the area. Stalin had no interest in seeing these 'handful of criminals' live so no Soviet air strips for supply drops for the Polish.
 
Well, you could have more successful arms smuggling attempts and Polish outside help. That would kill more Germans, and if the Jews concentrated on survival and evacuation, they might have been able to have a significant number of Jews escape from Warsaw and disappear into the countryside.
 
Originally posted by Armored Diplomacy
Well, you could have more successful arms smuggling attempts and Polish outside help. That would kill more Germans, and if the Jews concentrated on survival and evacuation, they might have been able to have a significant number of Jews escape from Warsaw and disappear into the countryside.

It is not so easy. Some of the Jews were able to escape, but Germans were quite successful in isolating the ghetto from the rest of Warsaw, so mass exodus would have been rather easy to spot. Then they would have locked down the whole town.
Disappearing in the countryside was also not so easy. First, you would have had to find safe homes or hideaways for...how many people are talking about exactly? Let's say 5000, OK? Find safe houses in very short period of time for 5000 people with no papers, some of them with rather characteristic facial features, sometimes speaking a very characteristic dialect. Find 5000 houses willing to take them in. Very hard to do - remember, in Nazi occupied Poland helping a Jew in any way was punished with death, often enough for anyone in a house where a Jew was found. There were cases when whole villages were destroyed for helping Jews - so it is obvious that Poles were scared. Add to it much too strong antisemitism among Poles. As Marek Edelman said: sometimes it took a whole village to hide a Jew - but it took only a one man to betray him. The betrayer and his family were safe for any punishment from the Germans - they were often rewarded. And even if you find those houses you still have to get those Jews there, and that was too very hard. Few Poles had cars (even pre-war, and then Germans took many of them), railways were strictly controlled by German police. So how to get all those people without papers to a safe place?
As far as weapon smuggling goes - Polish resistance itself had very limited numbers of weapons. Most of the weapons used in the ghetto uprising were lost to the Germans. I'm not surprised Home Army didn't want to share to many weapons for such a desperate action. Nevertheless, some of Polish resistance groups (including Home Army) did try to help the Jews with various degree of success.
 
It is not so easy. Some of the Jews were able to escape, but Germans were quite successful in isolating the ghetto from the rest of Warsaw, so mass exodus would have been rather easy to spot. Then they would have locked down the whole town.
Disappearing in the countryside was also not so easy. First, you would have had to find safe homes or hideaways for...how many people are talking about exactly? Let's say 5000, OK? Find safe houses in very short period of time for 5000 people with no papers, some of them with rather characteristic facial features, sometimes speaking a very characteristic dialect. Find 5000 houses willing to take them in. Very hard to do - remember, in Nazi occupied Poland helping a Jew in any way was punished with death, often enough for anyone in a house where a Jew was found. There were cases when whole villages were destroyed for helping Jews - so it is obvious that Poles were scared. Add to it much too strong antisemitism among Poles. As Marek Edelman said: sometimes it took a whole village to hide a Jew - but it took only a one man to betray him. The betrayer and his family were safe for any punishment from the Germans - they were often rewarded. And even if you find those houses you still have to get those Jews there, and that was too very hard. Few Poles had cars (even pre-war, and then Germans took many of them), railways were strictly controlled by German police. So how to get all those people without papers to a safe place?
As far as weapon smuggling goes - Polish resistance itself had very limited numbers of weapons. Most of the weapons used in the ghetto uprising were lost to the Germans. I'm not surprised Home Army didn't want to share to many weapons for such a desperate action. Nevertheless, some of Polish resistance groups (including Home Army) did try to help the Jews with various degree of success.

True, but if the Jewish fighters, for example, concentrated on a breakout, you could have had a Sobibor-like situation, where most escapees are killed or tracked down, but some survived.

Also, keep in mind that many Jews were not just hiding in villages. They joined partisan groups hiding out in the forest.

Overall, if you had a few thousand break out, perhaps a hundred might survive.
 
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I don't think it is possible to make the ghetto uprising much more successful than IOTL. For reasons already mentioned above.
 
The ideal of the citizen-soldier taking his musket down from the mantel and rallying to the defense of his home or to overthrow an unjust regime became untenable long before World War II. Basically there was no way for any of the Allied Powers could have materially supported the Warsaw Ghetto uprising. Warsaw was beyond the range of the B-17 and barely within range of the B-24 and in any event there was nothing a heavy bomber could do to support ground fighting.
 
Originally posted by Armored Diplomacy
True, but if the Jewish fighters, for example, concentrated on a breakout, you could have had a Sobibor-like situation, where most escapees are killed or tracked down, but some survived.

Sobibor was an isolated camp in the middle of a forest with no more than 150 guards. After breaking out of the camp it was relatively easy to hide in the forest to try evading recapture - and even then most of escapees died. Warsaw ghetto was in the middle of rather large city with strong German garrison - it would be hard to find a shelter and any larger group would be quickly found and destroyed.
 
The ideal of the citizen-soldier taking his musket down from the mantel and rallying to the defense of his home or to overthrow an unjust regime became untenable long before World War II. Basically there was no way for any of the Allied Powers could have materially supported the Warsaw Ghetto uprising. Warsaw was beyond the range of the B-17 and barely within range of the B-24 and in any event there was nothing a heavy bomber could do to support ground fighting.

True regarding the Allied powers in the situation. Stalin had no intention of letting the uprisers live as they would get in the way of his plans to completely control Poland. Model was disaffected enough that he wasn't going to attack Warsaw who he openly said was in the right for Nazi mistreatment of them. However, he wasn't the kind of general to send the Poles any support against the SS.

The one German Field Marshal whose personality style and views very well I think would have lead him to secretly meet with the Poles in rebellion and come to sort of arrangement for his under the table military support for their operations in exchange for only attacking the SS and not screwing with his operations against the Red Army was under investigation at that point for defeatism and treason.

Though it would make for an interesting timeline now that I think of it if Rommel had been injured say three months earlier before he did enough clear skullduggery in France against the regime to get him killed and in this timeline by the time Rommel is back in service Model had been killed or badly injured leaving Army Group Center without a leader.

When Rommel thought he saw true evil and in his words infamy when the SS Der Führer Regiment in France gassed and burned alive 642 French civilians (something he demanded the head of the SS Regiment's commander over) I can't imagine his response to serving at the East and seeing the SS was doing that and far worse on a daily basis.

Actually now that I think about it... this could actually make for a really interesting time line that few have considered. Rommel was never sent to the East because Hitler considered him too moral and thus too weak to accept what needs to be done there. Which was a smart move as he would have saw things that would vastly have crossed all his moral boundries. But, the July bombing f***ed up Hitler's head even worse then it already was beforehand and really reduced Hitler judgement. If he believed Rommel was still loyal and Model was injured or dead Hitler at that time very well might have given Rommel command of Army Group Center.

I think there is a good chance knowing his personality he would have after seeing what the SS was doing there for himself decided to provided enough weapons to the Poles under the table to make their rebellion vastly more successful to the extent where they are able to liberate much of Poland including the death camps in short order and fight off the SS and unless it is uncovered quickly by the time Hitler figures out what had gone on he won't be able to do a damn thing about it.
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Yes, this really would be one way to really f*** over both Hitler and Stalin. In that the death camps as well as Poland would be liberated earlier and the West would come to see the Polish uprising in extremely positive terms to the point they would be regarded as some of the greatest heroes of the war. They would tell the world (thanks to Rommel's help to them) that these are not the crimes of the German people or its Army they are the crimes of the SS and Hitler. They would tell the German people along with those in the West as the whole world would be listening over the radio that they hope the Western Allies and the good people of Germany will work together to fight this evil.

I imagine 'The People's Field Marshal' as Rommel was know would announce the crimes and the horror of the death camps that he saw over the radio along with having ordinary German soliders talk about what they saw after having visited them. If my reciently dead German friend who served in the East was right in what he told me that had the had the horror of the death camps come out from a source or sources the German people very strongly trusted during the war it would have fractured German society itself and caused a civil war in the country. Rommel was one of the very few people at that point universally respected enough in Germany that most of Germany would have believed him and at that point many Germans had a vague idea already the Nazis were doing bad things in the East.

Its quite possible if the uprising is that successful the Western Allies decide to air drop massive numbers of troops and if possible land troops north of Poland which would really really f*** over Stalin as he would have to decide if ruling Poland is worth going to war with the Western Allies in late 1944 which he just might decide to do so given American nukes would still be in his mind a year or two away.

If the Western Allies don't land or air drop troops to Poland then when Stalin takes Poland and puts down the Polish uprising brutally and kills their leaders I think FDR's bromance with Stalin ends as does Lend Lease and the Cold War starts in 1944 with there being vastly more support in the West for Churchill's plan to attack the Soviet's after dealing with the German forces in the West who would be vastly more demoralized then they were OTL to the extent I see the Western Allies taking Germany before the Soviets.

The real question is what does the German Army in the West do. I imagine they would be angry and demoralized from the events and news from the East. Do they surrender in mass to the Western Allies or do they pull back to Germany to help those Germans who at that point would be attacking SS units around the country and I actually believe my now dead German fiend on this. The death factories were a line that very much crossed the point beyond what ordinary Germans at the time including most of the Army would have been able to accept.

There is also the question of what the Western Allies do. Lets say If the German Army in the West is pulling back after the news and their relationship with Stalin just turned cold as ice and decisions to divide up Germany with Stalin and Lend Lease to Stalin have been openly terminated after news reports of NKVD troops on mass gunning down the heroes of Poland and with Germany in a state of war with itself do they effectively decide to take sides in the civil war while still planning on occupying Germany? Do they openly support the Poles still fighting the Soviet's as well as what is left of Army Group Center who will be fighting alongside them as well by landing troops north of Poland?

Do they decide that while they will occupy Germany after the that it would be in their interest to make a deal with German commanders returning to Germany with their troops along with Western Allied troops to overthrow the Nazi Party and wipe out the SS in exchange for letting the Germany Army continue to fight the Soviets and openly backing them to drive the Soviets out of Eastern Europe on the condition that Germany will be occupied along with Eastern Europe while allowing Germany to have at least during the war have the facade of a German government to appease Germans while London and Washington have veto power over its decisions?

Basically in that case its Churchill's Operation Unthinkable on steroids with enough German troops to make it work. Churchill would be all for it, but in order to convince the Americans I think he would have to make sure there are some U.S. and British troops in Poland aiding the Poles and they die heroically protecting the Poles against the Red Army with their names and the rest plastered over the radio and the news. That would be enough to turn around American public opinion overnight to the point Americans will be demanding that the U.S. declare war on the USSR as well. If FDR decides to continue to try to play nice with Stalin and view America's only real enemy in Europe as Gemans he will lose the 1944 election to a GOP who will run on a hard core anti Soviet platform. Then Churchill would have an American ally who is willing to support his ideas of both overthrowing the Nazis while using the Germans with significant Western Allied help to push the Soviets out of Eastern Europe.

Alot of pretty interesting possibilities could come out of this.
 
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You know what... I haven't made a full timeline in a long time. And, over Christmas break I think I will write one as my thoughts above gave me some great ideas that I haven't seen many alternate historians think about or touch.

What if Rommel served in the East is most often an AH idea that fanboys write to show how he was the most amazing general ever and could have kicked the ass of the Red Army even in 1944/45 as was in a recient AH book.

But, I honestly do not share their views as he couldn't leap over military reality and done much better, especially post Kursk if Hitler didn't let him go on the defense and ordered the attack. Sure he could have done better then Paulus or some others at times, but the real potental as I see it in disaffecting him against the regime massively more then OTL.

The Warsaw uprising would provide a great backdrop for how that could matter. Its would be very much in his personality to provide help to them after seeing the SS actions in the East and if he can manage to provide enough real military help with the Nazis figuring out too late what he has been doing it would change the course of the uprising massively assuming they manage to defeat the SS troops and the uprising spreads across all of Poland and the death camps are liberated... the whole thing could potentally alter the course of history alot of ways depending on the actions of Stalin and the Western Allies in response to a vastly more successful uprising in Poland.

By the way Time magazine annoyed me this year with a picture of the Warsaw uprising in one of their magazines and had a full page spread of troops in what anyone who knows anything about WW2 would know were SS uniforms runes and all ready to execute Polish children and it sarcastically said at the bottom of the page something along the lines of the Wehrmacht honorably battles mighty Polish fighters during the 1944 Warsaw uprising. Not only were those troops obviously not Wehrmacht, but one of its most brutal commanders openly refused to have the army take part in the crackdown. The Time spread did illustrate an interesting modern reality that lets just say the teaching of the difference between the SS and the regular German Army has gone away completely for the masses.

I don't like when history is altered big time to suit a modern politically expedient view. The Wehrmacht was not clean of war crimes and Walter Model was a man who could be and at times was very brutal. In fact he was one can argue of the most brutal of the Field Marshals. He still openly criticized what the Nazis did to the Poles and openly refused orders to put down the uprising forcing the SS to do it.

Model would't have given a damn if the Poles killed every member of the SS sent against them... and as I said he was one of the more brutal and loyal to a fault Field Marshals in the Army. Pretending the German Army and the SS were no different and one big happy family is convenient for many from a modern context, but historically wrong and ignores one of the biggest conflicts inside Germany at the time it also doesn't allow people to really understand how Hitler managed to commit genocide on such a mass scale without taking or having the time to brainwash German society that genocide was acceptable.

Hitler before he became too demented knew enough to have his entire military and seperate security organs subdivived on the basis of their moral limits of their leaders which he would test from time to time. Its why certain generals like Rommel never fought a day in Eastern Europe, but the more brutal generals certainly did. Even among the scum of German society they made sure they were subdivided between the cowards who didn't want to go into battle working the SS death factories or just shooting unarmed people to death to those who weren't so afraid of fighting and dying and thus ended up leading the military arm of the SS.
 
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