could the Zaporozhian Cossack Hetmanate become a lasting nation?

[Berserker]

eventualy the Cossacks lost their total independance to the russians

could the cossacks form a lasting nation until present (or near present) day??

 

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

Prevent the rise of Muscovy in the 1500's. As long as the Russian principalities could remain weak and divided, the Cossack hosts may have time to flourish on their own.

 

[carlton_bach]

Maybe Ottoman vassalage? I know the cossacks were violent enemies of the Turks in their time, but a lot of the peoples the Empire swallowed up retained a distinct identity.

 

[Mirza Khan]

Prevent the rise of Muscovy in the 1500's. As long as the Russian principalities could remain weak and divided, the Cossack hosts may have time to flourish on their own.

No, I think the best way is to prevent the decline of the PLC, and have it and Muscovy remain major powers. That way, the Zaporozhians can continue to play the two off against each other.

 

[Berserker]

would they also need better internal structure??

from what If heard was that as soon as the founder of the Hetmanate was dead they began a series of infights which weakend them

 

[kasumigenx]

No, I think the best way is to prevent the decline of the PLC, and have it and Muscovy remain major powers. That way, the Zaporozhians can continue to play the two off against each other.

Or have Poland not have a union with Lithuania for starters...

 

[RGB]

The Union predates the flourishing of the Sich, but something like a Cossack state may arise there or somewhere in the area regardless.

At the same time, something needs to contain the Nogays and the Tatars, and if the PLC isn't it, what is?

 

[kasumigenx]

The Union predates the flourishing of the Sich, but something like a Cossack state may arise there or somewhere in the area regardless.

At the same time, something needs to contain the Nogays and the Tatars, and if the PLC isn't it, what is?

Lithuania-Novgorod perhaps.

 

[eliphas8]

The Union predates the flourishing of the Sich, but something like a Cossack state may arise there or somewhere in the area regardless.

At the same time, something needs to contain the Nogays and the Tatars, and if the PLC isn't it, what is?

An Orthodox Lithuania may end up having a similar arrangement as they did with Poland in Russia.

 

[Vladislav]

Russian tsarevich on Ukrainian throne in 1660?
Timosh Khmelnytsky not dead?
Alternate Russian foreign policy in the early XVIII century?
The failure of the the coup of Catherine II (Ukraine is a Russian "dominion")?

 

[Vladislav]

Lithuania-Novgorod perhaps.

Grain supplies in Novgorod go through central Russia, and not through Belarus in XIV-XV century, Grand Prince of Moscow Novgorod constantly blackmailed by this. These developments is only possible if the Lithuanian control Zalesie or absence of a single center there.

 

[RGB]

Grain supplies in Novgorod go through central Russia, and not through Belarus in XIV-XV century, Grand Prince of Moscow Novgorod constantly blackmailed by this. These developments is only possible if the Lithuanian control Zalesie or absence of a single center there.

Agreed, all Moscow had to do was go and parade around Torzhok. They already held the Volga routes.

Lithuania-Novgorod would have to involve Ryazan - Suzdal - Tver lands in some way to bypass the Moscow parts of the Volga route, or else to have control over the water (which was blocked by the Livonians and the Lithuanians didn't have a merchant fleet anyway).

Orthodox-Lithuania like Vladislav's TL proposes could to the trick of a Cossack state with a partner powerful enough to keep the Tatars from launching serious invasions.

Maybe have them take the Lower Dniepr fortresses and move the focus of conflict south into the Pontic steppe instead of the Steppe Road through the Donets.

Hm.

 

[Vladislav]

Orthodox-Lithuania like Vladislav's TL proposes could to the trick of a Cossack state with a partner powerful enough to keep the Tatars from launching serious invasions.

Maybe have them take the Lower Dniepr fortresses and move the focus of conflict south into the Pontic steppe instead of the Steppe Road through the Donets.

Hm.

Cossacks are in this case the population of the frontier, which is going the east, and the Lithuanian-Russian administration and farmers are well into the Cossacks. Stable Cossack state can not be formed ITTL

 

[RGB]

Cossacks are in this case the population of the frontier, which is going the east, and the Lithuanian-Russian administration and farmers are well into the Cossacks. Stable Cossack state can not be formed ITTL

You think?

The Dniepr isn't the only place where it can develop. I'm not sure about a stable state but a distinct society seems almost guaranteed to me by the 16th c.

The Don will still remain a frontier.

 

[Vladislav]

The Dniepr isn't the only place where it can develop. I'm not sure about a stable state but a distinct society seems almost guaranteed to me by the 16th c.

I think to create a Circassian Cossack state in the Krasnodar Krai in my TL but I'm not sure how things develop

The Don will still remain a frontier.

Rus hegemonic aims to control the Astrakhan (Astrakhan - the most important point of trade between Persia and Eastern Europe). The shortest route between Astrakhan and the Dnieper basin passes through Astrakhan-Volgograd-Don, Azov-Black Sea-Kherson. Trade will go this route until the railways.