Could the US have enforced the Monroe Doctrine during the Civil War?

[Kayin Dreemurr]

Out of a sudden curiosity and interest in looking at diplomacy during the US Civil War, I was reminded that the French did intervene in Mexico in the middle of it, and that it took time before the US got move involved to deal with the situation and enforce the Monroe Doctrine. There was also the Spanish retaking their former colony of the Dominican Republic.

But could the US have been able to enforce it while they were in the middle of the Civil War? Would this have brought in the European powers into the Civil war and spread things further? What might have happened if that did happen, especially depending on which European powers got involved? Would this have simply dragged the Civil war out and given the CSA a longer lifespan, or would this have stretched the US too thin?

 

[unprincipled peter]

The US was barely protecting itself in the civil war. Its navy wasn't built to project power offshore. The populace was getting tired of the existing war. That pretty much answers your question.

 

[EnglishCanuck]

When the Civil War broke out in 1861 the French, Spanish and British invaded Mexico and the French in 1862 started their attempt to conquer it. In the same year the Spanish tried to seize control of Hispaniola.

Historically the Monroe Doctrine was inert until (effectively) 1866 when France and Spain both withdrew from their attempted conquests in the New World.

The United States would have been hard pressed to enforce the Monroe during peace time in the 1860s, enforcing it during the civil war would have been (and was) effectively impossible.

 

[wcv215]

I mean...the British were the ones who enforced the Monroe Doctrine as it was so...

Just as much as normal really.

 

[Lenwe]

The USA can't really enforced the Monroe's doctrine until 1895 or so. Then by lógic they áre Even more incapable to do ii during their civil war

 

[marathag]

The USA can't really enforced the Monroe's doctrine until 1895 or so. Then by lógic they áre Even more incapable to do ii during their civil war

Summer 1865, with a Million Man Army with repeating rifles and for a short time, technologically speaking, the most powerful Ironclad Navy on Earth

No European Empire was going to mess with that. The ACW was a distraction for what was going on in Central and South America till April 1865

 

[Dave Howery]

I mean...the British were the ones who enforced the Monroe Doctrine as it was so...

Just as much as normal really.

and yet, they didn't deal with a couple of blatant attempts to get around the MD... always wondered why the Brits were so blasé about France's invasion of Mexico...

 

[funnyhat]

and yet, they didn't deal with a couple of blatant attempts to get around the MD... always wondered why the Brits were so blasé about France's invasion of Mexico...

Relations between the two countries had significantly improved, and they had just signed a free trade agreement. The British probably decided that Mexico was not important enough to risk their relations.

 

[Kayin Dreemurr]

Couldn't the blockade they were using to strangle the CSA have been able to, theoretically, try to keep those forces away from Mexico though? Or at least have done so later on as the CSA was beginning to crumble? I know that after looking it up once the war was over the US parked an army on the border with Mexico and pretty much told the French to go fuck back over to Europe and with the issues they were already having decided they'd had enough.

 

[Kayin Dreemurr]

and yet, they didn't deal with a couple of blatant attempts to get around the MD... always wondered why the Brits were so blasé about France's invasion of Mexico...

As I understand it, Mexico also owed some money to Britain as well.

 

[Dave Howery]

Couldn't the blockade they were using to strangle the CSA have been able to, theoretically, try to keep those forces away from Mexico though?

AIUI, the USN during the ACW was a damn strong coastal and river force, but not a real deep sea fleet... and the best of the best of the USN then wasn't really able to go toe to toe with the French navy. But naval forces ended up being rather irrelevant with the US army parked on the Mexican border, ready to pass on supplies to the rebel Mexican army...

 

[Lenwe]

Summer 1865, with a Million Man Army with repeating rifles and for a short time, technologically speaking, the most powerful Ironclad Navy on Earth

No European Empire was going to mess with that. The ACW was a distraction for what was going on in Central and South America till April 1865

And still they can't proyect anything, The ironclad you mentioned were monitors, excelent for costal and close costal navy warfare, but not really capable to Cross an Ocean.
The army as numerous it was, have a serious clusterfuck in his supply chain, With the advantage of the Home Turf, and No I'm not speaking about the Confederation.

 

[FillyofDelphi]

And still they can't proyect anything, The ironclad you mentioned were monitors, excelent for costal and close costal navy warfare, but not really capable to Cross an Ocean.
The army as numerous it was, have a serious clusterfuck in his supply chain, With the advantage of the Home Turf, and No I'm not speaking about the Confederation.

Is the US power projection if France puts the majority of her focus on the Americas? No. But the thing about Europeans is they're... well, over in Europe, an have other Europeans mucking about in their own backyards which are always going to be more important than a pet project in the New World. All the US has to do is make any attempt to challenge her costly enough that the offender risks getting caught with their resources tied down when one of the dozens of pots they care about back home starts boiling over.

 

[Kayin Dreemurr]

Is the US power projection if France puts the majority of her focus on the Americas? No. But the thing about Europeans is they're... well, over in Europe, an have other Europeans mucking about in their own backyards which are always going to be more important than a pet project in the New World. All the US has to do is make any attempt to challenge her costly enough that the offender risks getting caught with their resources tied down when one of the dozens of pots they care about back home starts boiling over.

Which is one reason why Napoleon the III ended up withdrawing from Mexico, with the big army the US plopped on the border helping.

I think some are considering that I'm suggesting the Union in enforcing the Monroe Doctrine during the war is saying to go on a major offensive against the Europeans. I wasn't really thinking of that at all. At most I was thinking they'd extend the blockade so that European forces couldn't get into Mexican waters and work to simply trap what European forces are present in Mexico while working to keep the British at bay in the north. And considering the Polish revolt in Russia and Russia's own eyeing of things in the Balkans...

 

[Lenwe]

Is the US power projection if France puts the majority of her focus on the Americas? No. But the thing about Europeans is they're... well, over in Europe, an have other Europeans mucking about in their own backyards which are always going to be more important than a pet project in the New World. All the US has to do is make any attempt to challenge her costly enough that the offender risks getting caught with their resources tied down when one of the dozens of pots they care about back home starts boiling over.

I wish that the European where only in europe. if anything The European were everywhere in the XIX Century.
But you áre right The European only attacked were they sensed weakness

 

[marathag]

And still they can't proyect anything, The ironclad you mentioned were monitors, excelent for costal and close costal navy warfare, but not really capable to Cross an Ocean.
The army as numerous it was, have a serious clusterfuck in his supply chain, With the advantage of the Home Turf, and No I'm not speaking about the Confederation.

USS Miantonomoh, a double-turreted monitor, crossed the Atlantic to show the flag over Europe, and did make a big impression in 1866

And how were the logistics for France in Mexico in 1866?

The US Army of 1846 was able to operate all over Mexico. The US had the logistic ability to operate a huge army at that point was even better in 1866

 

[cra0422]

This may be a stretch but also remember that during the 1860s Otto von Bismarck was launching his German unification wars. The Danish-Prussian War in 1864, the Austro-Prussian War/Seven Weeks War in 1866 and finally the Franco-Prussian War in 1870. So the European powers are going to be paying more attention to the map of Central Europe being redrawn rather than attempting to gain or increase their colonial holdings in the Americas.

Back to the earlier statements about British enforcement of the Doctrine, it suited their purposes to do so mainly because Britain wanted the Latin American countries to be independent so they could provide new markets for British made goods and if Spain took back its colonies, it would have hurt their overseas trade.

 

[Alternator]

Capable? Possibly against the British, and certainly against anyone else - it'd depend on how motivated Britain really was. If Britain really wants to meddle they're capable of it, but if it's just opportunism, the Americans could drive the price too high to be worthwhile. Everyone else relevant has too many immediate concerns in Europe.

Worthwhile? No, because it would risk foreign recognition for the Confederacy, and protecting the Americas from European exploitation is much less important than protecting the country from rebellion.

 

[Fabius Maximus]

Couldn't the blockade they were using to strangle the CSA have been able to, theoretically, try to keep those forces away from Mexico though? Or at least have done so later on as the CSA was beginning to crumble? I know that after looking it up once the war was over the US parked an army on the border with Mexico and pretty much told the French to go fuck back over to Europe and with the issues they were already having decided they'd had enough.

They could try, but I don't think they'd be very successful -- the French navy was one of the most powerful in the world, and the US navy was geared towards intercepting enemy trade rather than fighting large-scale naval battles.

 

[marathag]

They could try, but I don't think they'd be very successful -- the French navy was one of the most powerful in the world, and the US navy was geared towards intercepting enemy trade rather than fighting large-scale naval battles.

French had a lot of Trade that could be intercepted, and in 1866, a large scale Naval Battle would likely be in the US favor. French Broadside ironclads were not that impressive