Could the US have decided Pacific first

usertron2020, the Worst Person in the Worrrrrrld!

No, no, no, NO!
Goering was a fascist, which puts him on the left-wing. The actual name for the Nazi party was the National Socialist Workers Party; Fascism is National Socialism, Communism is International Socialism. Fascism tries to portray itself as 'middle of the road' and 'Third Way' while Communism doesn't even try to hide what it is.
That's pretty much the only difference between the two; think of two dogs fighting over a bone and you'll see why Fascism and Communism hated each other. Not because they're so different but because they're so similar; they compete for the same group of people, namely left-wingers who want to see government control all aspects of our lives.

The only reason why anyone would think that fascism is right-wing is because so many academics sold their souls to Stalin, who called everyone opposed to him a fascist. Except that when you are as far left as Stalin, everyone else is to the right of you; with Hitler, though, that still isn't saying much.

The US brand of Fascism was called Progressivism; modern day Liberals are descended from that movement.

There have, in fact, been two fascist US presidents: one of them threw people in jail for disagreeing with him, the other had people rounded up and put in camps because of their race. Guess who they were?

Woodrow Wilson and FDR!

Think about it.

And lets not even talk about Barack Hussien "Blame Bush" Obama....
Listen you [Obscene gerund][Anatomically explicit epithet]!:mad: I... oops. Is my face red! It didn't even occur to me. I confess I was thinking that either Glenn Beck's evil twin Skippy was on the AH forum as a provocation agent, or Anne Coulter herself had joined as one of our members.

NOW I GET IT! Obviously, we've all had an April Fool's Day prank played on us a day early! I confess I did this myself earlier today.:eek: So, my question to you, jedipilot24, is this: "Is that you out there, KEITH OLBERMANN?":cool:
 
Japan First is a mirage. The closer you get to it, the more it pulls away.

USS Tuscaloosa, USS Augusta (Atlantic Fleet Heavy Cruisers that never saw Pacific service). USS Arkansas (Atlantic Fleet Battleship that never saw Pacific service), USS New York, USS Texas (Battleships that did not see Pacific service until 1945). USS Tennessee, USS Maryland, USS Pennsylvania (Very lightly damaged Pearl Harbor survivors). USS Colorado-Battleship in drydock refitting on the West Coast). USS North Carolina (Battleship-once she finishes her sea trials). USS Wyoming (Old Battleship/Training Ship-if you are willing to send a partially armed warship that is as old as the Arkansas). USS Long Island (CVE-if you are willing to use in fleet battles a warship that cannot keep up with fleet speed warships). USS Hornet, USS Yorktown (Fleet CVs). USS Wasp (Fleet CV-if you are willing to leave Malta in the lurch). USS Ranger (Fleet CV-if you are willing to use a warship that is not QUITE up to fleet speed and can be blown out of the water with one good hit). All the Fleet Destroyers (DDs) needed to escort these vessels (if you are willing to extend Doenitz's "Second Happy Time" well into 1943).

These warships represent a massive reinforement of the Pacific Fleet, but only quantitatively. Qualitatively, the IJN still has a considerable lead. Consider the difference in carrier aircraft and torpedoes...
 
USS Tuscaloosa, USS Augusta (Atlantic Fleet Heavy Cruisers that never saw Pacific service). USS Arkansas (Atlantic Fleet Battleship that never saw Pacific service), USS New York, USS Texas (Battleships that did not see Pacific service until 1945). USS Tennessee, USS Maryland, USS Pennsylvania (Very lightly damaged Pearl Harbor survivors). USS Colorado-Battleship in drydock refitting on the West Coast). USS North Carolina (Battleship-once she finishes her sea trials). USS Wyoming (Old Battleship/Training Ship-if you are willing to send a partially armed warship that is as old as the Arkansas). USS Long Island (CVE-if you are willing to use in fleet battles a warship that cannot keep up with fleet speed warships). USS Hornet, USS Yorktown (Fleet CVs). USS Wasp (Fleet CV-if you are willing to leave Malta in the lurch). USS Ranger (Fleet CV-if you are willing to use a warship that is not QUITE up to fleet speed and can be blown out of the water with one good hit). All the Fleet Destroyers (DDs) needed to escort these vessels (if you are willing to extend Doenitz's "Second Happy Time" well into 1943).

These warships represent a massive reinforement of the Pacific Fleet, but only quantitatively. Qualitatively, the IJN still has a considerable lead. Consider the difference in carrier aircraft and torpedoes...

What you really need for Pacific First is something like CalBear's TL where the Japanese get hit hard early on and the US starts really gearing up for the Pacific earlier. That way, both the military conditions (badly-damaged Japanese forces) and the material conditions (plenty of ships and such) can get together and start steamrolling earlier.
 
USS Tuscaloosa, USS Augusta (Atlantic Fleet Heavy Cruisers that never saw Pacific service). USS Arkansas (Atlantic Fleet Battleship that never saw Pacific service), USS New York, USS Texas (Battleships that did not see Pacific service until 1945). USS Tennessee, USS Maryland, USS Pennsylvania (Very lightly damaged Pearl Harbor survivors). USS Colorado-Battleship in drydock refitting on the West Coast). USS North Carolina (Battleship-once she finishes her sea trials). USS Wyoming (Old Battleship/Training Ship-if you are willing to send a partially armed warship that is as old as the Arkansas). USS Long Island (CVE-if you are willing to use in fleet battles a warship that cannot keep up with fleet speed warships). USS Hornet, USS Yorktown (Fleet CVs). USS Wasp (Fleet CV-if you are willing to leave Malta in the lurch). USS Ranger (Fleet CV-if you are willing to use a warship that is not QUITE up to fleet speed and can be blown out of the water with one good hit). All the Fleet Destroyers (DDs) needed to escort these vessels (if you are willing to extend Doenitz's "Second Happy Time" well into 1943).

Of those ships you mentioned, Hornet, Yorktown, and Wasp all were eventually transferred to PacFlt. Yorktown was heavily damaged at Coral Sea and sunk immediately following Midway. Both Wasp and Hornet were sunk in separate battles of Guadalcanal in IIRC late summer of 1942. North Carolina also was sent to the Pacific by mid 1942. USS Long Island was on the West Coast in mid 1942. In fact, the only ships I can think of that you mentioned that did not see Pacific service by 1943 were the two CAs, Texas, Arkansas, Wyoming, New York and Ranger. How do 4 obsolescent/obsolete BBs, 2 CAs, and a CV completely unsuitable for PacFlt carrier ops do anything other than tie up escorts that could be better employed elsewhere? The US didn't need more gun platforms until around the time that they had enough of them, anyway.

On the other hand, the majority of those 7 warships saw valuable service in the Atlantic, in roles they could not have effectively filled in the Pacific.
 

Ian the Admin

Administrator
Donor
The US brand of Fascism was called Progressivism; modern day Liberals are descended from that movement.

There have, in fact, been two fascist US presidents: one of them threw people in jail for disagreeing with him, the other had people rounded up and put in camps because of their race. Guess who they were?

Woodrow Wilson and FDR!

Think about it.

And lets not even talk about Barack Hussien "Blame Bush" Obama....

Does anyone have something better than "membership" for "One site, one membership, one admin"?

Banned.
 
What you really need for Pacific First is something like CalBear's TL where the Japanese get hit hard early on and the US starts really gearing up for the Pacific earlier.
To bad the TL died.
 

Hendryk

Banned
Goering was a fascist, which puts him on the left-wing. The actual name for the Nazi party was the National Socialist Workers Party; Fascism is National Socialism, Communism is International Socialism. Fascism tries to portray itself as 'middle of the road' and 'Third Way' while Communism doesn't even try to hide what it is.
That's pretty much the only difference between the two; think of two dogs fighting over a bone and you'll see why Fascism and Communism hated each other. Not because they're so different but because they're so similar; they compete for the same group of people, namely left-wingers who want to see government control all aspects of our lives. (...)

The US brand of Fascism was called Progressivism; modern day Liberals are descended from that movement.
We sure have been hearing this kind of nonsense with increasing frequency. Is Jonah Goldberg that influential, or is there a general attempt on the fringes of the radical right to rewrite history?
 
We sure have been hearing this kind of nonsense with increasing frequency. Is Jonah Goldberg that influential, or is there a general attempt on the fringes of the radical right to rewrite history?

Considering how often fascism has been accused of being big business, control religious fundamentalism or military control it's pretty par for the course.

If one word becomes an all-purpose catch-all for abuse then it will be used ubiquitously.
 

Hendryk

Banned
If one word becomes an all-purpose catch-all for abuse then it will be used ubiquitously.
Fascism has been a catch-all term of abuse since 1945, but this silly idea that it was really a left-wing ideology is no more than a few years old. So I don't think the two are related.
 
Fascism has been a catch-all term of abuse since 1945, but this silly idea that it was really a left-wing ideology is no more than a few years old. So I don't think the two are related.

If right-wing ideas are repeatedly described as fascist with little or no justification then, at risk of being Chrisist, reciprocation becomes "inevitable."

Left-wing thought has also evolved into a more totalitarian-lite direction. With the failure to secure equality through economical control other levers have become more important. The left now takes increased interest in diet, exercise, upbringing and in using education to inculcate favoured.

This has created something of an open goal into which to put the much-tossed around fascism football.
 
Fascism has been a catch-all term of abuse since 1945, but this silly idea that it was really a left-wing ideology is no more than a few years old. So I don't think the two are related.

I think the idea of the political scale curving full circle on itself (if you go far enough to the fringe) is a bit older than that.

Otherwise, it's the usual juvenile "I don't like A and B, therefore A and B are very similar"
 

Hendryk

Banned
Otherwise, it's the usual juvenile "I don't like A and B, therefore A and B are very similar"
Sometimes it sounds more like "I may support waging wars of aggression, locking up political prisoners in detention camps, using torture on suspects, tapping private communications and using the coercive powers of the State to mess with people's private lives, but I can't possibly be a fascist, because fascists were left-wing, and I'm right-wing! so there!"
 

Ian the Admin

Administrator
Donor
Fascism has been a catch-all term of abuse since 1945, but this silly idea that it was really a left-wing ideology is no more than a few years old. So I don't think the two are related.

I saw it at least as far back as the early 90s, coming exclusively from American Libertarians at the time. It might still be something they picked up from extreme Republicans, who weren't as loud then. It was definitely one of those shared talking points.
 

Typo

Banned
The problems is the left-right spectrum is simplisticly flawed and ambigious in the first place, and thus all people have to do is redefine left and right to their own convenience.
 
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