Could the US go to war with Portugal and maybe the UK to restore the Pernambuco republic?

Gukpard

Gone Fishin'
OTL the USA was in such a frenzy to declare new independences in the americas that they recognised the pernambuco republic that had declared independence from the United Kingdom of Portugal and Brazil. Could the US have gone to war with Portugal in 1817 to support the revolt? If yes, could the anglo-portuguese alliance be called to fend off the americans?
 
I bit doubt that. USA just had disastrous war only two years earlier so it hardly would care go to new war that soon.
 

Gukpard

Gone Fishin'
I bit doubt that. USA just had disastrous war only two years earlier so it hardly would care go to new war that soon.
Is there a way to avoid the 1812 war? If yes, would the US consider going to war to prop pernambuco?
 
You could avoid the War of 1812 by having England cave on the ship search in time for USA to react and calm down. OTL, this happened too late.

But, you have to come up with a reason for war with Portugal. Merely recognizing Pernambuco isn't enough. There is minimal in it for the USA. Plus, they have minimal means for power projection, especially if you've avoided the Wo1812, so not much way to go to war.

Perhaps, if the Pernambuco Republic lasts long enough, and USA sends a diplomat there, and that diplomat is killed/detained, it could spark a crisis big enough to cause war.
 
You could avoid the War of 1812 by having England cave on the ship search in time for USA to react and calm down. OTL, this happened too late.

But, you have to come up with a reason for war with Portugal. Merely recognizing Pernambuco isn't enough. There is minimal in it for the USA. Plus, they have minimal means for power projection, especially if you've avoided the Wo1812, so not much way to go to war.

Perhaps, if the Pernambuco Republic lasts long enough, and USA sends a diplomat there, and that diplomat is killed/detained, it could spark a crisis big enough to cause war.
It wouldn't matter too much, in 1817 the US Navy was a brown water joke without any capacity of projection whatsoever.
 
I guess if they did survive that could be useful as a means of creating a special relationship between the two long term, though the effect on the rebellion itself would be nill
Might as well combine that with the rebels actually succeeding in their attempt to grab Napoleon for the most wanked Pernambuco possible
 
OTL the USA was in such a frenzy to declare new independences in the americas that they recognised the pernambuco republic that had declared independence from the United Kingdom of Portugal and Brazil. Could the US have gone to war with Portugal in 1817 to support the revolt? If yes, could the anglo-portuguese alliance be called to fend off the americans?
Did the US actually recognise Pernambuco? I think this is unlikely. IIRC, Congress passed some sort of motion of support but diplomatic recognition is a matter for the executive. Ironically, Monroe and Adams were very leery of getting into a conflict for republicanism in South America. In OTL, they only recognised the South American republics in 1822, long after people like Clay had been pushing for it, and the Monroe Doctrine was issued only after the Transcontinental Treaty had been signed and once Adams was confident that they wouldn't actually have to do any fighting for the sake of it.

Clay on the other hand, was pretty gung ho on the subject of Latin America. Avoiding the War of 1812 (and the post-war Monroe-Adams attempts to normalise relations with Europe) could certainly work. How about this? In around 1811, Madison reversed his attempts to resolve the issues with Britain peacefully by dismissing Robert Smith as secretary of state and replacing him with Monroe, beginning the gradual road to war. In TTL, Madison choose to recall Albert Gallatin instead who continues to push for peace. The result is that De Witt Clinton defeats him in 1812 on a hawkish platform (this was Clinton's initial plan before war was declared), with Clay either as his running mate or (better) as secretary of state (John Armstrong would be a good alternative running mate). Clinton talks tough but the British aren't really interested in war and the repeal of the orders in council that comes in late 1812 defuses the immediate cassus belli so the War of 1812 doesn't occur. Clinton and Clay come to believe that by throwing their weight around they've persuaded the British Empire to back down, and get a rather exaggerated sense of their importance in the grand scheme of things. Clay's decision to recognise the government in Buenos Aires puts the U.S. at odds with Portugal/Brazil (not to mention their ally Britain). Clinton is either re-elected in 1816, or else Clay is elected to succeed him, just in time for the Pernambuco revolt to escalate into a wider war...
 
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raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
How about this? In around 1811, Madison reversed his attempts to resolve the issues with Britain peacefully by dismissing Robert Smith as secretary of state and replacing him with Monroe, beginning the gradual road to war. In TTL, Monroe Madison choose to recall Albert Gallatin instead who continues to push for peace. The result is that De Witt Clinton defeats him in 1812 on a hawkish platform (this was Clinton's initial plan before war was declared), with Clay either as his running mate or (better) as secretary of state (John Armstrong would be a good alternative running mate).
Did you actually mean *Madison* in the above statement?

Clinton talks tough but the British aren't really interested in war and the repeal of the orders in council that comes in late 1812 defuses the immediate cassus belli so the War of 1812 doesn't occur. Clinton and Clay come to believe that by throwing their weight around they've persuaded the British Empire to back down, and get a rather exaggerated sense of their importance in the grand scheme of things. Clay's decision to recognise the government in Buenos Aires puts the U.S. at odds with Portugal/Brazil (not to mention their ally Britain). Clinton is either re-elected in 1816, or else Clay is elected to succeed him, just in time for the Pernambuco revolt to escalate into a wider war...
That sounds like a serviceable way to get a US government overly cocky about its ability to throw its weight around and intimidate others. Trying to power play or truly take risks for Pernambuco still seems a stretch, as does doing it successfully, but this seems a fairly decent set-up for it.

I would wonder if the kind of set-up you suggest and provide here, of a blustery USA getting the British to back down on the Orders-in-Council issue and preventing the War of 1812, does not leave idle American hands free to make mischief, and minds at ease to grow ambition, to solve the "Florida problem" in much more of a hurry, and perhaps greedily attempt to leverage Spain's troubles to possibly reopen and solve a Texas problem, Alta California "problem", or Cuba "problem" with a Spanish-American war at some point between 1813 and 1818?

As I was suggesting, in this case, the US would simply give in to temptation to resolve the Florida problem by declaring war on Spain, invading Florida, and annexing it, instead of negotiating the transcontinental treaty. So it forces minimum concession from Spain in that war of Florida/Florida(s), and probably Spain's claim to Oregon Country as well, while not making any concessions to Spanish New Spain for the western "step boundary" adjustment to the Louisiana Purchase/Unorganized Territory. However, depending on ambition, luck, and intrigue with Mexican and Spanish-American independentist forces, the US may succeed in further territorial expansion in an anti Spanish war. Gaining Texas- perhaps its eastern part up to the Colorado, or a boundary all the way to the Rio Grande. Or have further remarkable success and claim all Nuevo Mexico and Alta California, possibly while supporting Mexican rebels to the south. Or gaining cession of Cuba....but here I have no idea of the US-Spanish naval balance or imbalance at the time. Cuba could easily be an operation eminently sinkable by Spanish squadrons, depending on the timing.
 
Did you actually mean *Madison* in the above statement?

Yup, Madison.

That sounds like a serviceable way to get a US government overly cocky about its ability to throw its weight around and intimidate others. Trying to power play or truly take risks for Pernambuco still seems a stretch, as does doing it successfully, but this seems a fairly decent set-up for it.

I would wonder if the kind of set-up you suggest and provide here, of a blustery USA getting the British to back down on the Orders-in-Council issue and preventing the War of 1812, does not leave idle American hands free to make mischief, and minds at ease to grow ambition, to solve the "Florida problem" in much more of a hurry, and perhaps greedily attempt to leverage Spain's troubles to possibly reopen and solve a Texas problem, Alta California "problem", or Cuba "problem" with a Spanish-American war at some point between 1813 and 1818?

As I was suggesting, in this case, the US would simply give in to temptation to resolve the Florida problem by declaring war on Spain, invading Florida, and annexing it, instead of negotiating the transcontinental treaty. So it forces minimum concession from Spain in that war of Florida/Florida(s), and probably Spain's claim to Oregon Country as well, while not making any concessions to Spanish New Spain for the western "step boundary" adjustment to the Louisiana Purchase/Unorganized Territory. However, depending on ambition, luck, and intrigue with Mexican and Spanish-American independentist forces, the US may succeed in further territorial expansion in an anti Spanish war. Gaining Texas- perhaps its eastern part up to the Colorado, or a boundary all the way to the Rio Grande. Or have further remarkable success and claim all Nuevo Mexico and Alta California, possibly while supporting Mexican rebels to the south. Or gaining cession of Cuba....but here I have no idea of the US-Spanish naval balance or imbalance at the time. Cuba could easily be an operation eminently sinkable by Spanish squadrons, depending on the timing.

I think it's certainly possible that without a War of 1812, you'd get a Spanish-American War in the late 1810s. The negotiations that led to Adams-Onis nearly ground to a halt a few times in OTL and could easily have led to war; so switch out Adams and Monroe for a more bellicose administration and I think it's very possible. In a way, that was in my head as the 'standard' scenario, and the U.S.-Brazilian War was an alternative development.

In terms of a U.S.-Brazilian War in the 1817s, presumably there's a likelihood that this gets mixed up with the Brazilian-Argentine dispute over the Banda Oriental?
 

Beatriz

Kicked
The US, or with an earlier POD, another New World state, having special relationship states in the 19th and early 20th centuries is of interest to me?
 
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