Could the RN have done much to stop a German invasion in 1942?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Could the Royal Navy have done much to stop a German invasion of the UK in 1942?
I'm not asking what the RAF might have been able to do? I'm not interested in how many troops the Germans would have needed or whether (given their original timeline schedule and dispositions) the Germans could have found all the troops that would have been required?
I'm asking whether the UK's 'senior service' had reached such a nadir that it would have been effectively powerless to stop a German crossing of the Channel from taking place?
I inquire, since in February 1942, things had got to such a low point that the Germans were able to sail much of their surface fleet (including two of their most powerful warships Scharnhorst and Gneisenau) up the English Channel, in broad daylight, and the only real damage that the German fleet took was from air-laid mines encountered once they were already well clear of the Channel itself. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channel_Dash

Some of the highlights of the events which led up to this included such disasters for the Royal Navy as:

  • The loss of multiple cruisers and destroyers in the Mediterranean in 1941, including during the evacuation of Crete.
  • The loss of the battlecruiser Hood in May 1941.
  • The loss of the carrier Ark Royal and the battleship Barham to U-boats in the Mediterranean in November 1941.
  • The loss of the battlecruiser Repulse and the battleship Prince of Wales off Malaya in December 1941.
  • The knocking-out by Italian frogman attack of the battleships Queen Elizabeth and Valiant in December 1941.
  • The Japanese advance across the South China Sea at the end of 1941/start of 1942 drawing off Royal Navy ships to that theatre.
If it had been down to just the Royal Navy in 1942, with what they had in hand in UK waters, could they have prevented Germany from conquering the UK?
 
Last edited:
Could the Royal Navy have done much to stop a German invasion of the UK in 1942?
I'm not asking what the RAF might have been able to do? I'm not interested in how many troops the Germans would have needed or whether (given their original timeline schedule and dispositions) the Germans could have found all the troops that would have been required?
I'm asking whether the UK's 'senior service' had reached such a nadir that it would have been effectively powerless to stop a German crossing of the Channel from taking place?
I inquire, since in February 1942, things had got to such a low point that the Germans were able to sail much of their surface fleet (including two of their most powerful warships Scharnhorst and Gneisenau) up the English Channel, in broad daylight, and the only real damage that the German fleet took was from air-laid mines encountered once they were already well clear of the Channel itself. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channel_Dash

Some of the highlights of the events which led up to this included such disasters for the Royal Navy as:

  • The loss of multiple cruisers and destroyers in the Mediterranean in 1941, including during the evacuation of Crete.
  • The loss of the battlecruiser Hood in May 1941.
  • The loss of the carrier Ark Royal and the battleship Barham to U-boats in the Mediterranean in November 1941.
  • The loss of the battlecruiser Repulse and the battleship Prince of Wales off Malaya in December 1941.
  • The knocking-out by Italian frogman attack of the battleships Queen Elizabeth and Valiant in December 1941.
  • The Japanese advance across the South China Sea at the end of 1941/start of 1942 drawing off Royal Navy ships to that theatre.
If it had been down to just the Royal Navy in 1942, with what they had in hand in UK waters, could they have prevented Germany from conquering the UK?

Luke 23:34
 

TFSmith121

Banned
You do realize its a slightly different operational situation, right?

Could the Royal Navy have done much to stop a German invasion of the UK in 1942? I inquire, since in February 1942, things had got to such a low point that the Germans were able to sail much of their surface fleet (including two of their most powerful warships Scharnhorst and Gneisenau) up the English Channel, in broad daylight, and the only real damage that the German fleet took was from air-laid mines encountered once they were already well clear of the Channel itself. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channel_Dash

You do realize its a slightly different operational situation, right?

The Germans squadron was steaming north, under what - for the Germans - was air superiority - and with no operational priority greater than, essentially, getting the hell oout of Dodge at as high a speed as possible.

Any attempt to cover a landing attempt in the UK means, in contrast:

a) steaming west - toward trouble, essentially;
b) steaming in slow speed circles offshore in English coastal waters;
c) absent anything close to air superiority;
d) etc, etc...

And, at the time, of course, they had a small problem in the East.

Best,
 
Considering the fact that the barges the Germans had to come over in where quite capable of sinking in open water on a bright sunny day in summer with no help, I think their odds are long. The Channel Dash worked, yes, with "dash" being the operative word. If they have to stick around, the old R-Class ships can make quite the gunline, even if the two German ships would not be wildly outgunned by Rodney and Nelson. As well as every destroyer capable of carrying a torpedo pressing it home in full "England Expects" mode.

But still, the barges. There are few ships that can make an ASW optimized frigate into the effective equivalent of Yamato. A Rhine barge is one of them. And it's hard to factor out Coastal Command. Perhaps the Germans survive due to the RAF and RN getting in fights about who gets to launch the torpedoes first?
 
Names? Classes? Location?

Short and long answer is yes.
With what ships?
The only ships the Royal Navy brought to bear in February to try to intercept the German fleet were a handful of motor torpedo boats, and a flotilla of five destroyers.
If there were more ships available than that, around the UK, how many were there, and why weren't they brought to bear in February 1942 to try and stop the Kriegsmarine?

Edit:
I suppose there were a handful up at Scapa Flow stuck in a long-range staring contest with Tirpitz.
 
With what ships?
The only ships the Royal Navy brought to bear in February to try to intercept the German fleet were a handful of motor torpedo boats, and a flotilla of five destroyers.
If there were more ships available than that, around the UK, how many were there, and why weren't they brought to bear in February 1942 to try and stop the Kriegsmarine?

Edit:
I suppose there were a handful up at Scapa Flow stuck in a long-range staring contest with Tirpitz.

They were where a thorough reading of Germany's communications said they do the most good - in the face of a planned invasion, that will not be the Mediterranean.
 
With what ships?
The only ships the Royal Navy brought to bear in February to try to intercept the German fleet were a handful of motor torpedo boats, and a flotilla of five destroyers.
If there were more ships available than that, around the UK, how many were there, and why weren't they brought to bear in February 1942 to try and stop the Kriegsmarine?

Edit:
I suppose there were a handful up at Scapa Flow stuck in a long-range staring contest with Tirpitz.

Ok let's review operation Cerberus real quick. The British were caught by surprise by the Germans leaving Brest at night. They thought they'd time it so the ships would've passed the Dover strait at night and thus given them a twelve hour warning.They didn't and thus the British had to scramble what they could and as mentioned the Luftwaffe was enjoying air superiority for one of the few times over Britain.


Now thing is an invasion would be impossible for Hitler to cover and if the British detected one you can bet your ass ever ship in the RN would be recalled to home waters to stuff the Channel to stop the Germans. Which of course Germany can't defeat due to their piss poor navy at the time. Oh and this is without mentioning the obvious question. Where the hell does Hitler get the troops for the invasion when he's wrestling the Russian bear?
 

TFSmith121

Banned
About 35 destroyers and a light cruiser on the southern and eastern coasts

With what ships?
The only ships the Royal Navy brought to bear in February to try to intercept the German fleet were a handful of motor torpedo boats, and a flotilla of five destroyers.
If there were more ships available than that, around the UK, how many were there, and why weren't they brought to bear in February 1942 to try and stop the Kriegsmarine? Edit: I suppose there were a handful up at Scapa Flow stuck in a long-range staring contest with Tirpitz.

About 35 destroyers and a light cruiser on the southern and eastern coasts, along with more sloops, corvettes, minesweepers, minelayers, MGBs, MTBs, patrol vessels, patrol craft, gunboats, armed yachts, etc etc etc. than any sane man would want to count...

See:

http://www.naval-history.net/xDKWW2-4201-40RNShips2Home.htm

And that doesn't include the Home Fleet or ships assigned to the Western Approaches which could, of course, be in action against any German transport fleet and its escorts within hours...

Best,
 
Last edited:
Ah!

About 35 destroyers and alight cruiser on the southern and eastern coasts, along with more sloops, corvettes, minesweepers, minelayers, MGBs, MTBs, patrol vessels, patrol craft, gunboats, armed yachts, etc etc etc. than any sane man would want to count...

See:

http://www.naval-history.net/xDKWW2-4201-40RNShips2Home.htm

And that doesn't include the Home Fleet or ships assigned to the Western Approachs which could, of course, be in action against any German transport fleet and its escorts within hours...

Best,

Ah, thank-you, some NUMBERS!
 
...

Sure - find Roskill in the library; plenty of detail.

ZEELOWE wouldn't work any better in 1942 than it would in 1940, of course.

It wouldn't have worked in 1918, either.

Best,
Original Timeline, by 1942 Hitler was obviously (by his own choice) up to his neck in Russians, but the events of the end of 1941 seem to pushed the RN to breaking point. Apart from things in for repair/refit, there seems to be very little left in home waters in early 1942 bigger than a destroyer. So far I count one battleship (King George V), and a handful of cruiser squadrons guaranteed available at Scapa Flow in early 1942... :eek:

Anyway, certainly bookmarking that website. Very useful. :)
Edit:
Thanks again...
 
Last edited:
The only advantage of a 1942 invasion over a 1940 one is landing craft, since in 1942 the Germans could at least potentially deploy a number of Marinefährprahm, which had a capacity of 85-140 tonnes, and a speed of 10.5 knots when empty (no loaded speed given), so at least if the RAF and RN were removed it would be possible for them to get across safely even in rough weather.
 
The only advantage of a 1942 invasion over a 1940 one is landing craft, since in 1942 the Germans could at least potentially deploy a number of Marinefährprahm, which had a capacity of 85-140 tonnes, and a speed of 10.5 knots when empty (no loaded speed given), so at least if the RAF and RN were removed it would be possible for them to get across safely even in rough weather.

Until it runs into even a single RN Anti-Aircraft Cruiser
 
Oh I didn't say they'd have a hope in hell of making it, simply that they'd actually have some proper landing craft this time around.
 
Last edited:
It's an interesting intellectual exercise. Of course, any invasion by it's very nature would be noticed by the build up of barges and ships. Lets assume the Germans get their ships back from France, joining Tirpitz to make 3BB, 2 PB and 2 CA's as a squadron.

Home Fleet in February 1942:

BB King George V, Duke of York, Malaya
BC Renown
CV Victorious, Argus
CA Norfolk, Suffolk, Kent, London, Berwick, Cumberland

This does not include large numbers of ships transferred East in February 1942, or ships under refit or repair.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top