Could the rise of Jim Crow have been prevented?

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RousseauX

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So? It was a violent time and unfortunately the KKK had support mostly because of carpetbaggers and the Feds.

I guess you've never lived under military occupation.
also did you just seriously shrug "so" at the historical fact that white supremacists burned down black schoolhouses to deny black children education?

I mean I get it that you probably don't like the US federal gov, but carpetbaggers are a convenient way of not talking about the fact that the reconstruction came down to a race war where blacks lost
 

Yun-shuno

Banned
also did you just seriously shrug "so" at the historical fact that white supremacists burned down black schoolhouses to deny black children education?

I mean I get it that you probably don't like the US federal gov, but carpetbaggers are a convenient way of not talking about the fact that the reconstruction came down to a race war where blacks lost
Sadly yes it happened, but what you expect that soldiers from New York and Minnesota tell people in the south by the way we are going to forcibly enfranchise blacks, we might disenfranchise you and if you don't like it we'll shoot you.

But I guess rape, theft, and occupation are okay cuz progress and the March of history and all that fun jazz
 
No but my ancestors did.
If you don't mind me asking, but how far back? Some of My ancestors presumably lived under military occupation, since they're from the South and also Mexico, but it was so far back that it doesn't affect me.
 

RousseauX

Donor
Sadly yes it happened, but what you expect that soldiers from New York and Minnesota tell people in the south by the way we are going to forcibly enfranchise blacks, we might disenfranchise you and if you don't like it we'll shoot you.

But I guess rape, theft, and occupation are okay cuz progress and the March of history and all that fun jazz
except it wasn't the federal army which was disenfranchising poor whites: it was the planter elite itself which fought back against universal suffrage. And it's not like the south was going to accept racial or legal equality for blacks without the reconstruction.

and yeah sorry dude, I think forcibly enfranchising blacks at bayonet point is morally and ethically justified
 

Yun-shuno

Banned
If you don't mind me asking, but how far back? Some of My ancestors presumably lived under military occupation, since they're from the South and also Mexico, but it was so far back that it doesn't affect me.
Well at least 4 generations perhaps five I did have ancestors that were with Lee at Appotomax and basically walked home barefoot after the surrender was signed.

How does it affect me? Not directly in any way but I won't spit on my own heritage and will challenge narratives simply because their popular and the current zeitgeist if I feel their dishonest.
 

Yun-shuno

Banned
except it wasn't the federal army which was disenfranchising poor whites: it was the planter elite itself which fought back against universal suffrage. And it's not like the south was going to accept racial or legal equality for blacks without the reconstruction.

and yeah sorry dude, I think forcibly enfranchising blacks at bayonet point is morally and ethically justified
Okay then I guess we'll agree to disagree on what's ethical behavior.
 
Well at least 4 generations perhaps five I did have ancestors that were with Lee at Appotomax and basically walked home barefoot after the surrender was signed.

How does it affect me? Not directly in any way but I won't spit on my own heritage and will challenge narratives simply because their popular and the current zeitgeist if I feel their dishonest.

They walked home barefoot because they were stupid enough to start a war with someone who had at least 3 times their population and 10 times their industrialization with almost half the population disloyal. All in an effort to preserve slavery.
 

Yun-shuno

Banned
They walked home barefoot because they were stupid enough to start a war with someone who had at least 3 times their population and 10 times their industrialization with almost half the population disloyal. All in an effort to preserve slavery.
I'm bowing out.

Have a nice day!
 

RousseauX

Donor
Okay then I guess we'll agree to disagree on what's ethical behavior.
The lost cause of the Confederacy is dead, and a good thing.

The historical narrative you are promoting and believe in was used to justify Jim Crow and Segregation and is bad history to boot.
 

RousseauX

Donor
I'm bowing out.

Have a nice day!
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Yun-shuno

Banned
The lost cause of the Confederacy is dead, and a good thing.

The historical narrative you are promoting and believe in was used to justify Jim Crow and Segregation and is bad history to boot.
The Dunning school was academically accepted right until the civil rights movement succeeded. Just forty years after the end of the civil war it wasn't even some school of interpretation it was fact.
 

RousseauX

Donor
The Dunning school was academically accepted right until the civil rights movement succeeded. Just forty years after the end of the civil war it wasn't even some school of interpretation it was fact.
Similarly: Marxist schools of historical thought were academically accepted all the way into the 80s-90s, that didn't stop making them wrong in a lot of cases
 
The Dunning school was academically accepted right until the civil rights movement succeeded. Just forty years after the end of the civil war it wasn't even some school of interpretation it was fact.

The Dunning School was from probably the most racist period in 20th century of US history. Woodrow Wilson got elected in this period , for God's sake!
 

Yun-shuno

Banned
Similarly: Marxist schools of historical thought were academically accepted all the way into the 80s-90s, that didn't stop making them wrong in a lot of cases
What I am saying is events change how history is perceived. I'm sure if Germany were to unify the EU under its banner politically or China were to develop it's own world hegemony this century it's going to effect the work and interpretation of historians.
 

Yun-shuno

Banned
The Dunning School was from probably the most racist period in 20th century of US history. Woodrow Wilson got elected in this period , for God's sake!
It was racist therefore wrong-it was the school of thought that existed when the events of the civil war were in living memory. Therefore racist or not still more accurate.
 

RousseauX

Donor
What I am saying is events change how history is perceived. I'm sure if Germany were to unify the EU under its banner politically or China were to develop it's own world hegemony this century it's going to effect the work and interpretation of historians.
But implicit in your statement is the idea that earlier, prior versions of the historical interpretations of a certain event must be the correct ones and the more research you do into it, the more inaccurate it is.

I'd argue the opposite is true, if you think the reconstruction is too controversial, you can look at a historical debate like why Europe pulled ahead of China. In the same period when the Dunning school was prominent the academic consensus on why China weren't developed as Europe amounted to Chinese peoples were inferior either racially or culturally. Since then we went through several cycles of thought which explained it through things like colonialism or geography which make much more sense and are much more logically consistent.

Intellectual progress in historiography is an iterative process, it doesn't end 50 years after an event is over.
 

Yun-shuno

Banned
But implicit in your statement is the idea that earlier, prior versions of the historical interpretations of a certain event must be the correct ones and the more research you do into it, the more inaccurate it is.

I'd argue the opposite is true, if you think the reconstruction is too controversial, you can look at something like why Europe pulled ahead of China. In the same period when the Dunning school was prominent the academic consensus on why China weren't developed as Europe amounted to Chinese peoples were inferior either racially or culturally. Since then we went through several cycles of thought which explained it through things like colonialism or geography which make much more sense and are much more logically consistent.

Intellectual progress in historiography is an iterative process, it doesn't end 50 years after an event is over.
No one doubts that, but events taking place at the same time historians are working affect their interpretations. Using my civil rights example historians sought looking at "the bad south" narrative around the time the civil rights movement prevailed. Society and current events affect historians that it my point.
 

Yun-shuno

Banned
Had the civil rights movement failed or history in the US followed a wildly different path than OTL you can bet your life the interpretations of past events including the civil war would look different.
 
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