Could the "Polish problem" be solved without conflict ?

Olmeka

Banned
How could the Polish problem be solved without any conflict ?
Russia can't grant autonomy to Poles since it will encourage Poles in Germany and Austro-Hungary, and Poles would claim lands seen as Russian by Russia. Conflict with Germany.
Germany can't establish a succesfull puppet Polish state because Poles would demand at least Poznan and wouldn't be loyal. Russia can use Poles against Germany promising to unite them.
Austro-Hungary seems the most possible with union of Galicia and former Congress Poland, but they would demands lands in Germany and Russia and turning into a full fledged state.

So is there any possiblity of solving that situation for partitioning powers without conflict and without resistance from the Polish population ?
Also was there any possibiliy of Polish state becoming independent without WW1 ?
 

Susano

Banned
Actually, after the Vienna Congress, Russian Poland ("Congress Poland") was autonomous until 1830, when it revolted and teh revolution wa ssurpessed. Afterwrads it was fully integrated into Russia.

Short of a war, there is no chance of an independant Poland, though - why would countries relase land they hold in that time and age? Unless they can set up a puppet state encompassing more territory, but that would require a war. The Crimean War comes to mind as one possibility, for example.
 

Olmeka

Banned
Actually, after the Vienna Congress, Russian Poland ("Congress Poland") was autonomous until 1830
Congress Poland of Poland was smaller though then Duchy of Warsaw, and didn't contain all the major Polish areas(for example Duchy of Poznan, an another in theory autonomous region in Prussia). As far as I know the Congress Poland wasn't really autonomous and Russian secret police ruled it, which was the reason for revolt.
You are right about the timeframe, it would be more suitable for After 1900, I will post it later there a similar question.
 

Susano

Banned
Congress Poland of Poland was smaller though then Duchy of Warsaw, and didn't contain all the major Polish areas(for example Duchy of Poznan, an another in theory autonomous region in Prussia). As far as I know the Congress Poland wasn't really autonomous and Russian secret police ruled it, which was the reason for revolt.

It didnt contain all ethnic Polish territories, but it was considered Poland - a rump Poland, certainly, but those things happen. But irrelevant - I understand what you aimed for in your question, an independant Poland consisting of at least Congress Poland, Posen and Galicia (or at leats Western Galicia). But as said, short of a war where one power defeats the other two and uses the opportunity to create a vasall I dont see how that is archievable.
 
So is there any possiblity of solving that situation for partitioning powers without conflict and without resistance from the Polish population ?

Not sure if this is ASB but...

- Prussia receives Saxony in 1815 and in exchange leaves Poznan.
- Poznan and Congress Poland are united in a restored Kingdom of Poland.
- A Romanov prince accepts to convert to Catholicism and seizes the Polish crown, making Poland a de facto Russian puppet, but perceived as independent by the populace.
 
What about a more successful assimilation of the Polish population instead of the rather harsh Germanisation used IRL:

Going for a bilingual population while accepting their catholic culture with soft incentives (e.g. improved career opportunities) to fully adopt the German language/culture later on might have worked ... not likely, but possible IMHO. Smart occupation policies admittedly tend to be an exception.

It worked e.g. in the Ruhr area, were miners from Poland even abandoned the catholic Zentrumspartei and joined the atheist/protestant SPD about a hundred years ago. Here in Berlin, there are lots of Germans with Polish family names that have lost any connection to Poland.
 
Originally posted by dummnutzer
What about a more successful assimilation of the Polish population instead of the rather harsh Germanisation used IRL:
Going for a bilingual population while accepting their catholic culture with soft incentives (e.g. improved career opportunities) to fully adopt the German language/culture later on might have worked ... not likely, but possible IMHO. Smart occupation policies admittedly tend to be an exception.
It worked e.g. in the Ruhr area, were miners from Poland even abandoned the catholic Zentrumspartei and joined the atheist/protestant SPD about a hundred years ago. Here in Berlin, there are lots of Germans with Polish family names that have lost any connection to Poland.
In Ruhr area Polish miners were a small minority of immigrants. Besides, being Polish doesn't make you authomatically supporter of catholic party. In Great Poland we talk about Polish majority who lived there since centuries. I do not think it would have worked.
 

Redbeard

Banned
Had the Poles achieved a more effective stateform, one actually capable of government, the Polish state ought to have had a greater chance of survival. We need a Polish noble breaking the back of all the other nobles.

Next some powerful allies would help. France played that role during Napoleonic wars, but would in many situations be better off with allying with Russia.

A Scandinavian/Nordic/Baltic entity would however share a lot of common enemies with Poland. First of all Russia, but also Prussia (to the degree there is Prussia at all) and the Habsburgs. So ATLs having such a power across or around the Baltic ought to give Poland a greater chance of a continious existance as an independent state, but of course also seeing to, that Poland does not become too strong.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard
 
Originally posted by Redbeard
Had the Poles achieved a more effective stateform, one actually capable of government, the Polish state ought to have had a greater chance of survival. We need a Polish noble breaking the back of all the other nobles.
Poland, or rather Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, started necessary reforms in second half of 18th century. King Stanisław August Poniatowski supprted the reformers, but their efforts were often paralyzed by ultra-conservatists and/or traitors, mostly serving Russia. The last thing Russia wanted was stable, strong PLC. On 3rd of May 1791 Sejm (PLC's Parliament) passed the constitution (1st in Europe, BTW) in which the worst elements of old political system were eliminated (like liberum veto, election of king etc.). The 3rd of May Constitution was good basis for creating modern, well organized state. Unfortunately, Russia intervened, and that was it. There was short war, heavily outnumbered PLC army fought surprisingly well, but couldn't match Russian army. After the war Prussia and Russia took another chunk of PLC territory - it was 2nd partition.
What you suggest is someone (an elected king, probably) making PLC an absolutist state. Theoretically possible, but very hard. Besides, Ii think this thread is not about "how PLC could survive" but "was it possible to recreate Poland" without WWI. IMHO no, it wasn't. Poland was occupied by 3 powerful empires and nothing short of war could change it. From Polish POV WWI ended with a miracle - all 3 opressors lost.
Although if you want to discuss how to save PLC, I'm all for it. But surely, it was discussed before?
 
No constitution-No Second Partition

Here's a link to the May 3rd constitution.http://www.polishconstitution.org/index1.html

Actually, staving off the constitution could save Poland. At the time it was allied with Prussia, but by a horrible coincidence, the French Revolution happened at around the same time. Before that, Russia was content with the satus quo in Poland, and the passing of the constitution caused it to intervene. Prussia never honoured the alliance with Poland because Frederick saw the constitution as something similiar to the French revolution so he too invaded Poland. That was the war of the defence of the constitution which ended with the second Partition.
Army reforms were already happening in Poland. So have the four-year sejm fail, and no constitution. Keep the army reforms going, and you could have at least a militarily competent Poland (saying nothing of its political stability) allied with Prussia surviving into the Napoleonic wars. If the wars still end up similiar to OTL (napoleon captured or killed and France defeated) Poland might have its survival guarranteed for a while longer.
 
Here's a link to the May 3rd constitution.http://www.polishconstitution.org/index1.html

Actually, staving off the constitution could save Poland. At the time it was allied with Prussia, but by a horrible coincidence, the French Revolution happened at around the same time. Before that, Russia was content with the satus quo in Poland, and the passing of the constitution caused it to intervene. Prussia never honoured the alliance with Poland because Frederick saw the constitution as something similiar to the French revolution so he too invaded Poland. That was the war of the defence of the constitution which ended with the second Partition.
Russia was in the war with Turks and intervened when got free hands (the reforms were already happening a few years before the constitution and not only military . Btw without that war there would be no reforms)
AFAIK Frederick proposed help in exchange for the same lands he grasped in the Second Partition.
 
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