Could the Pied Noir have established a white minority rule state in Algeria?

[The Ubbergeek]

Pied Noir, same difference.

Note; if I am right, Pieds-Noirs were ALL european-whites settlers. Not just frenches.

Maybe Akhenaton's parents used to be Pieds-Noirs (heard it around, but I may be really off) - they are however of Napolitean ancestry, south italians....

(Jean Leloup, famous singer of the francophony, was son of Pieds-Noirs too)

 

[Color-Copycat]

I think that's how it is.

Also, we should ask LSCatalina to chime in on this discussion. IIRC, he has some Pied Noir heritage, and last time there was an Algerian War thread, he brought up a lot of interesting points.

 

[Bee]

There was an attempt of sorts in 1960 or 61. Insurgents who thought De Gaulle was betraying them seized government buildings and threw up barricades in the streets. It lasted a week. The army didn't support the insurgents that time, but the next year there was an attempted coup led by generals in Algeria, which was intended to extend to France as well.

 

[Enigmajones]

I always wonder, when I see these threads, why no one ever wants to wonder how the French could have improved relations with the Muslim Algerian native majority to the point that the latter would themselves see themselves as French, in the sense of belonging within a greater France, and France thus winds up retaining Algeria integrally. With a loyal Muslim majority, fully enfranchised as normal citizens, participating equally in French society.

That too would surely require a POD in the 19th century of course. But so does white supremacy, unless one envisions a world where overt racism prevails generally.

I think I have a handle on why this rainbow France option of mine never got any traction, but it seems a shame, in contradiction to the best aspects of France's revolutionary heritage.

Of course the problem is that the whole French presence in North Africa was of course, like all colonial ventures, mainly at the expense of the natives, so reforming things to the point where they decisively buy in is pretty contradictory to the French being there in the first place. But if any European nation could conceivably pull it off, I'd bet on the French first.

When I consider how it might have gone, the first steps are very vague and perhaps hopelessly improbable, but if a halfway ambiguous improvement had happened already by 1940, WWII (assuming it isn't butterflied away) seems like a good tipping point. If France falls as OTL, but Algerian natives are at least somewhat enfranchised, then I think Algeria would not submit to Vichy. It would be the nucleus of Free France instead; by the end of the war the prestige of Algerians in general would be very high in France and postwar the unification and equalization would go smoothly.

In such a sketchy scenario, I figure the Algerians would already have impressed many if not all French people with their loyal help in WWI.

As things were OTL, the white-supremacist settlers of Algeria were the most inclined of French colonists, right alongside the colonialists of Indochina, to support Vichy and collaborate with the Axis.

It sure would be nice to have an AH where that was reversed!

Because France keeping Algeria just seems boring. Pied Noir Rogue State, pretty cool.

 

[Dunois]

The real problem with the Pied Noirs going for Rhodesian option is that their loyalities overwhelmingly lay towards France. It is very true to say that they considered themselves Algerians too, but this was very much on par with being French. One only need to witness how many Pied Noirs joined the Free French Army from 1942 onwards to understand this point.

The loyalties of the Muslim population were also rather fluid roughly until the late 1950s. Most living in the cities simply did not care about independence and were happy with the status quo, though they certainly aspired to the same standards of living and prosperity as their Pied Noir neighbours. The Muslim population living in the countryside and the bled, was disenfranchised on every possible level, unlike its counterparts living in the coastal cities. They consequently formed the main constituency of the FLN.

In my opinion if movements like the Front Algérie Française and such, start to advocate partition and then independence from France. It is highly likely that possibly up to two million Muslims will join in with the Pied Noirs, I think that having around a million Muslims loyalists is quite likely, especially if the FAF leadership wants to emphasise this aspect.

The area to be partitioned will roughly stretch from Algiers to the Moroccan border and likely include some form of corridor and link with the Sahara. I seem to recall from what I read of Peyrefitte, that Algiers was to be separated into two halves, possibly separated by a wall.

The Mitidja plain will be in the possession of this "French Algerian" state, so agriculturally speaking they will be self sufficient and a major wine exporter. The industrial base of Oran and West Algiers was a work in progress at the time, refineries, steel mills and chemical plants were in the planning stages. But this had a lot to do with French government help, without this help the plans will be curtailed but perhaps someone else could be persuaded to step in.

The crucial element is whether or nor the French Algerian state is in possession of the Sahara or not. Since the local tribes were disorganised, maintaining order in this region will be easy, but the connection with the coast would have to be very secure as well. If this state has the Sahara, the oil and gas exports will give it strategic clout and bargaining power in the international sphere.

If this partitition occurs, the remainder of Algeria will be utterfly fucked up and unable to do anything against it. They will have lost their most developped areas, a significant portion of their agricultural potential and the best educated parts of their population. A civil war between the FLN and other movements could very well happen, but the long term result may not be pretty since a movement openly allied with the Soviets could emerge.

 

[Enigmajones]

The real problem with the Pied Noirs going for Rhodesian option is that their loyalities overwhelmingly lay towards France. It is very true to say that they considered themselves Algerians too, but this was very much on par with being French. One only need to witness how many Pied Noirs joined the Free French Army from 1942 onwards to understand this point.

The loyalties of the Muslim population were also rather fluid roughly until the late 1950s. Most living in the cities simply did not care about independence and were happy with the status quo, though they certainly aspired to the same standards of living and prosperity as their Pied Noir neighbours. The Muslim population living in the countryside and the bled, was disenfranchised on every possible level, unlike its counterparts living in the coastal cities. They consequently formed the main constituency of the FLN.

In my opinion if movements like the Front Algérie Française and such, start to advocate partition and then independence from France. It is highly likely that possibly up to two million Muslims will join in with the Pied Noirs, I think that having around a million Muslims loyalists is quite likely, especially if the FAF leadership wants to emphasise this aspect.

The area to be partitioned will roughly stretch from Algiers to the Moroccan border and likely include some form of corridor and link with the Sahara. I seem to recall from what I read of Peyrefitte, that Algiers was to be separated into two halves, possibly separated by a wall.

The Mitidja plain will be in the possession of this "French Algerian" state, so agriculturally speaking they will be self sufficient and a major wine exporter. The industrial base of Oran and West Algiers was a work in progress at the time, refineries, steel mills and chemical plants were in the planning stages. But this had a lot to do with French government help, without this help the plans will be curtailed but perhaps someone else could be persuaded to step in.

The crucial element is whether or nor the French Algerian state is in possession of the Sahara or not. Since the local tribes were disorganised, maintaining order in this region will be easy, but the connection with the coast would have to be very secure as well. If this state has the Sahara, the oil and gas exports will give it strategic clout and bargaining power in the international sphere.

If this partitition occurs, the remainder of Algeria will be utterfly fucked up and unable to do anything against it. They will have lost their most developped areas, a significant portion of their agricultural potential and the best educated parts of their population. A civil war between the FLN and other movements could very well happen, but the long term result may not be pretty since a movement openly allied with the Soviets could emerge.

So this state would remain under French control then?

 

[abc123]

Intresting discussion. And intresting proposals. I might include something of the sorts in my TL "Consequences of a heart attack", but I'm still not sure what to do here...
Could France/de Gaulle decide to carve such small part of Algiers from Algiers and to pull back French troops from the rest of Algiers?

 

[Dunois]

So this state would remain under French control then?

Partition was envisionned as happening within France yes.

But I don't see the resulting "French Algerian" state remaining part of France forever, if it does it will be a drain on resources and a source of permanent tensions.

 

[abc123]

Partition was envisionned as happening within France yes.

But I don't see the resulting "French Algerian" state remaining part of France forever, if it does it will be a drain on resources and a source of permanent tensions.

But, do you see that soltion as possible under de Gaulle? Is that in his personality?

 

[Dunois]

But, do you see that soltion as possible under de Gaulle? Is that in his personality?

abc123 we have talked about this before I seem to recall.

I don't see this happening with De Gaulle in power, since we would understand what a drain the French Algerian enclave would be on the government finances and in terms of international reputation.