Its just something Im wondering about after watching a video about the Rhodesians. The Pied Noir had seemingly sufficient numbers, but they never attempted to rule the nation under White Minority control. Could they have pulled it off if they had tried? Obviously in the long wrong, it will fall like all other white minority ruled nations, but if they had created such a government, how long could they have maintained it?
Could the Pied Noir have established a white minority rule state in Algeria?
- Thread starter Enigmajones
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Since they couldn't hold out without massive support from France in the first place it would seem very unlikely.
unlike in say South Africa, or the American South, Pied Noir where rather intermixed with their Arab neighbors, and separation was more by convention and tradition than any laws, I think there are chances for a large part of the French Military to try and set up a state in Algeria (see 1958 and 1961) but the Pied Noir themselves alone couldn't, that said I could see a Pied Noir-Harki stand if the FLN was weaken enough
No, the influence and power wielded by the FLN and other such factions was too strong to break. You'd need a pre 1900 POD in order to change the social fabric so that there'd be possibility for a peaceful independence and subsequent Pied Noir dominated Algeria.
I'm not sure if it was here or on one of the other forums I frequent but I seem to recall reading a thread about this idea and one of the more interesting responses was that whilst the Pied-Noirs wouldn't of been able to take over Algeria they might of been able to get away with carving out their own country from some Algerian territory. I'll have a look and see if I can find it again.
A sort of Israel, except without the massive religious baggage of the area involved?
A state claiming to be the Legitimate government of France and being supported by a significant portion of the Metropolitan Army would probably be much easier to sell to the pied noirs (who were AFAIK quite definitively French as far as they were concerned).
Ah here we go, it was from the WI European Minority of Algeria Unilateral Declaration of Independance in 1961? thread. Here's the relevant bit I was thinking of,
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Thanks for the post. I wonder if the OAS could have used this Oranian state as its base.
it'd be like start Rhodesia in 1978 at the worst part of the Bush War (the Algerian War was much rougher than that) I think that an "Israel" type state where Europeans, Jews and Loyalist Muslims hold out against a less organized FLN
It's to note that there was no just the FLN - there was other freedom groups, maybe other interests (was there socialists/communists by example?).
One of the dark side of the war is how the FLN was ruthless in smashing ALL oppositions, and there was an infamous slaughter of the second group in importance by the FLN.
Maybe if someone realise this, and played the divide to rule plan...
One of the dark side of the war is how the FLN was ruthless in smashing ALL oppositions, and there was an infamous slaughter of the second group in importance by the FLN.
Maybe if someone realise this, and played the divide to rule plan...
if any one cares about the war there really is only one book to read, A Savage War of Peace: Algeria 1954-1962, By Alistair Horne, the chapter that gives the back round of Algeria is #2 on page 44, the Pied Nior are page 51 to 58, all of which is on-line at the link above.
For much of the 20th century, animosity between the Algerians and the Europeans was so strong to the point that a peaceful coexistence was bound to fail with the weakening ability of France to impose itself on the country. So the whole process of colonization during the 19th century would have to be tweaked in order to redress that animosity or prevent it from even arising in the first place.
I always wonder, when I see these threads, why no one ever wants to wonder how the French could have improved relations with the Muslim Algerian native majority to the point that the latter would themselves see themselves as French, in the sense of belonging within a greater France, and France thus winds up retaining Algeria integrally. With a loyal Muslim majority, fully enfranchised as normal citizens, participating equally in French society.
That too would surely require a POD in the 19th century of course. But so does white supremacy, unless one envisions a world where overt racism prevails generally.
I think I have a handle on why this rainbow France option of mine never got any traction, but it seems a shame, in contradiction to the best aspects of France's revolutionary heritage.
Of course the problem is that the whole French presence in North Africa was of course, like all colonial ventures, mainly at the expense of the natives, so reforming things to the point where they decisively buy in is pretty contradictory to the French being there in the first place. But if any European nation could conceivably pull it off, I'd bet on the French first.
When I consider how it might have gone, the first steps are very vague and perhaps hopelessly improbable, but if a halfway ambiguous improvement had happened already by 1940, WWII (assuming it isn't butterflied away) seems like a good tipping point. If France falls as OTL, but Algerian natives are at least somewhat enfranchised, then I think Algeria would not submit to Vichy. It would be the nucleus of Free France instead; by the end of the war the prestige of Algerians in general would be very high in France and postwar the unification and equalization would go smoothly.
In such a sketchy scenario, I figure the Algerians would already have impressed many if not all French people with their loyal help in WWI.
As things were OTL, the white-supremacist settlers of Algeria were the most inclined of French colonists, right alongside the colonialists of Indochina, to support Vichy and collaborate with the Axis.
It sure would be nice to have an AH where that was reversed!
That too would surely require a POD in the 19th century of course. But so does white supremacy, unless one envisions a world where overt racism prevails generally.
I think I have a handle on why this rainbow France option of mine never got any traction, but it seems a shame, in contradiction to the best aspects of France's revolutionary heritage.
Of course the problem is that the whole French presence in North Africa was of course, like all colonial ventures, mainly at the expense of the natives, so reforming things to the point where they decisively buy in is pretty contradictory to the French being there in the first place. But if any European nation could conceivably pull it off, I'd bet on the French first.
When I consider how it might have gone, the first steps are very vague and perhaps hopelessly improbable, but if a halfway ambiguous improvement had happened already by 1940, WWII (assuming it isn't butterflied away) seems like a good tipping point. If France falls as OTL, but Algerian natives are at least somewhat enfranchised, then I think Algeria would not submit to Vichy. It would be the nucleus of Free France instead; by the end of the war the prestige of Algerians in general would be very high in France and postwar the unification and equalization would go smoothly.
In such a sketchy scenario, I figure the Algerians would already have impressed many if not all French people with their loyal help in WWI.
As things were OTL, the white-supremacist settlers of Algeria were the most inclined of French colonists, right alongside the colonialists of Indochina, to support Vichy and collaborate with the Axis.
It sure would be nice to have an AH where that was reversed!
