Could the Nazis have risen to power without Hitler?

It's worth pointing out that Hitler was one of the only figures in the Nazi Party who, prior to taking power, managed to keep the different factions from either going their own way or knocking each other's teeth out. This was partially due to Hitler himself fomenting rivalries to cement his control but also thanks to how utterly volatile the initial Nazi coalition was, considering it was founded on currently or recently middle class Germans, reactionary aristocrats, more socialist-leaning ex-military veterans and stormtroopers and the handful of industrialists who saw the Nazis as a useful tool for dealing with anything on the Left they didn't like. On top of that you had the competing personalities of egos like Goering and the Strasser brothers who, themselves, were quite convinced they should be the ones running the show. Hitler's oratory, on top of that, helped the Nazis stand out from all the other various far right parties leading to them becoming the main competition for far right voters with the DNVP.

If you remove Hitler, particularly his brinksmanship that got him into power in the first place, then it's quite possible the NSDAP stay a minor fascist party rather than what they became.
 

PhilippeO

Banned
We know about how the Nazis and Adolf Hitler took power. But could they have done it without Hitler? Would they have still taken power? Who would be the Hitler of this TL? Say you know he's shot in WW1 and doesn't make it to a field camp.

Probably not. DNVP is for long time bigger than Nazi. They might win in another TL. Hugenberg as Chanchellor ? or alternatively some general might gain support from DNVP and gain dictatorial power. General Scleicher ?

Why is this in Chat ?

because Weimar Republic is sensitive subject and often cause comparison to modern USA and causing big debate ?
 
Probably not. DNVP is for long time bigger than Nazi. They might win in another TL. Hugenberg as Chanchellor ? or alternatively some general might gain support from DNVP and gain dictatorial power. General Scleicher ?



because Weimar Republic is sensitive subject and often cause comparison to modern USA and causing big debate ?
The events took place in the 1910's to 1930's. I could see where they come from but we are talking about weather the Nazis could come to power without Hitler.
 
the Nazi rise to power came about because of:

1) a small, dopesville party having an almost ASB run of good luck,

2) the reasonable, moderate people tying themselves into procedural knots, while the fanatics certainly did not, and

3) Paul von Hindenburg throwing the fuck it switch when he really didn't need to.

I need one of those switches in my life.

'Your grades came back toda-'

'FUCK IT!' -Slams fist on lever-

Anyway, I imagine that the Nazis without Hitler would lose a lot of their... fire?

Sure there were many other horrid people in the Nazi party, but they weren't exactly very good at speeches, campaigning, angrily shouting, that sort of thing. I imagine without Hitler we'd see far right authoritarians, similar to Italy, just without the whole 'let's kill all of Eastern Europe'.

So still horrid, but no longer really the Nazis of OTL. Although I doubt they'd even get to power without Hitler, and it'd probably just be right wing authoritarians based in the Reichstag similar to the past few years, hell Weimar Democracy might even come back if enough happens.
 
Without Hitler, if a war emerges, it would be very different than the second world war we remember. The issues might center on the territory lost after WWI: Alsace-Loraine, Sudetenland, Polish Corridor. The fact is that Germany built a military-industrial complex powerful enough to stand up to the combined forces of the Soviet Union, United States and Britain for several years. What happens if these resources are deployed differently? There are best and worst case scenarios. What could be worse than the war and Holocaust we know? A world war that starts later, when atomic and nuclear weapons are in the arsenal, but they are secret and known only to leaders. If an American congress or European parliament were to declare war, they would not realize the severity of the consequences.
 
They would, however, take the "Socialist" part more seriously. There'll be economic reforms against the Aristocracy and a rapprochement with the Soviet Union. You can bet that will plunge the west into a Panic, especially as the USSR starts helping Spain, China and any rebellious colony of the French and British they can find, now abetted by Germany's raw industrial power.

What? I mean, what the what? Going back long before Hitler when they were the 50-60 odd DAP even, the Nazi party’s entire raisin d’etre was opposing communism/Bolshevism/the left. And by opposing I mean beating up, kicking, knifing, clubbing, etc.
 
Somehow, I'm afraid here are Gregor and Otto Strasser mixed up once more.
I was talking aboput Gregor Strasser.

The "socialists" or as they were called later "Beefsteak Nazis"(brown on the face but boody red inside) around Otto Strasser and Walther Stennes (sry, no "english" wiki-entry about him, only his two "coups") were already marginalized in late 1931/beginning 1932.
Their "reappearance" in the Röhm-SA after the Hitleristic take-over of power is IMO more than debatable, sond much more like the justifications used by Hitler and Himmler etc. to later justify the "Night of the long knives".

However, the "socialistic" strand of the NSDAP was already before the 1930 election removed from power within the party with - especially Gregor Strasser - turning to maybe modern, nevertheless much more ... "pro-economists" views (like deficit-spending).



Therefore I often wonder, were these ... "proposals" of the "socialistic" behavior of a Gregor Strasser lead regime comes from ?
The commies were even or especially for Gregor Strasser ENEMY NO. 1, though pragmatist he was, he would have been much more "ready" to not only to reassure the German-Soviet "Berlin" treaty of 1926 but also to widen it to something resembling somethiong like the German-Soviet Credit Arrangement prior to the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.

In accordance with (most of) the german foreign office he would have for a damn long time at least stayed on a political - economy is a different song to be sung - rather pro-western course. ... at least in the dipülomatic back-room.
Si : No, IMO a (Gregor) Strasserist regime would not plunge the wallies into panic.

A Strasserist policy towards Spain would IMO be quite the same as IOTL, with a Germany, while supporting Franco (or similar) trying to play a game of "in-between" between the SU and the Entente-becoming-wallies-powers with political "overtures" to both sides.

China ... tbh : I don't know.

Gregor Strasser left (for an AH-ler uncomfortable) few notions about foreign and international politics.


Agreed. Even if this Strasser Nazi Party was more leftist , it would NOT be pro Russia/USSR.
 
Agreed. Even if this Strasser Nazi Party was more leftist , it would NOT be pro Russia/USSR.

Yeah, they (and Musolini’s Fascists) were literally an idea born in opposition of another idea, like conservatism was born as a reaction to liberalism. Fascism/Nazis were born as a reaction to communism/Bolshevism, etc. Socialism is just a word. The Roman Republic, People’s Republic of China, American Republican Party and Second Spanish Republic have almost nothing in common with one another except for a word.
 
@NoMommsen You're right, the Nazi's more Socialist elements were dashed on the Bamberg Conference. Any Strasserist NSDAP that forms must have Hitler removed before that Conference takes place.

The issue is how to get the now left-ish Nazis take control without their top speaker. The Aristocracy is clearly not gonna back them, nor would the military, unless von Streicher is swayed...

You're right, however. Gregor was more pragmatic (enabling the aforementioned support) while his brother was far more into a literal "National Socialism". However, they, alongside Stennes and Goebbles, openly spoke about making an alliance with the Soviet Union against "Western Decadence"/"Franco-British Imperialism" in those years.
 
I need one of those switches in my life.

'Your grades came back toda-'

'FUCK IT!' -Slams fist on lever-

Anyway, I imagine that the Nazis without Hitler would lose a lot of their... fire?

Sure there were many other horrid people in the Nazi party, but they weren't exactly very good at speeches, campaigning, angrily shouting, that sort of thing. I imagine without Hitler we'd see far right authoritarians, similar to Italy, just without the whole 'let's kill all of Eastern Europe'.

So still horrid, but no longer really the Nazis of OTL. Although I doubt they'd even get to power without Hitler, and it'd probably just be right wing authoritarians based in the Reichstag similar to the past few years, hell Weimar Democracy might even come back if enough happens.
Goebbels?
 
One minor detail; our image of Hitler ranting like a rabid dog is actually kind of ironic. His speaking style was apparently quite the reverse. He would start off very very softly, so softly everyone would become quiet and lean in, apparently it was quite a remarkable effect, like a whole pub or hall or w/e would turn quiet as a library, and there would just be this soft voice. And he’d speak pretty conversationally for a while. Just sort of going through his arguments. If you can call them that. Then near the end, seemingly inspired to passion (though he of course did this every speech so who knows) by the truth of the argument he would get louder and louder and culminate in that rant we all know so well from the clips. So to us it’s like ‘what’s the deal?’ but to listeners, even ones who found his views repulsive it was suppose to be startling, like someone yelling in a library, I guess.
 
He was a master propagandist, but how well was he as a public speaker?
Second only to Hitler. The trouble with the runt was that he didn't believe most of the things he was saying and he could not connect with the crowd on an emotional level that far lesser speakers could. While Hitler whipped the crowd into a frenzy and whipped himself into it along the way, driving everyone to the same goal with himself caught up, the runt wanted nothing more than to get the crowd crazy and then to stand back with an air of detachment, hand on hip to observe it all and gauge his impact. Some people noticed it at the time, some did not, but quite a few commented that there was something missing. He could not break through to that next level.

By comparison, Goering did not have his skills, but he connected far better. First and foremost, it cannot be on over-estimated the effect the Blue Max on his throat had on veterans and officers. His first post-War political speech testifies to it. There was a brouhaha among the Social Democratic government about military officers wearing their uniforms while not on active duty in and around Berlin. This was an era of anti-imperialism and anti-militarism and the residual effect was the SDs wanted the officers not to "parade" around Berlin in uniform more than necessary. The hapless liaison between the government and the military had to go and sell this decree to a room full of officers. It went about as well as you imagine. As the anger reached boiling point, Lt. Goering stood up to make his denunciation of the decree. Witnesses say that even before the first words were out of his mouth, the officers applauded him when they saw the Blue Max cross around his neck. Then he launched into a speech and was cheered for it. Goering's speeches read like boilerplate nonsense today. But he had the delivery.

Goebbels was never going to be The Guy. He was too cynical by half, to ready to turn it all into a joke and mock the dull witted. He was an educated man that wanted to be recognized for his education. Goering and Roehm had no such problems. These men believed when they said the principle ideology of Nazi Party was "marching." Goebbels was the one trying to dig up the kernel of socialism and etc. in the Party manifesto. And Goebbels wanted to find a figure to worship, in whose shadow he could feel warmth. He did not want to be The Guy.

Without Hitler, the Southern wing of the Party would have splintered from the Northern one. The beefsteaks would not have gotten along with the hardliners. And then there was the question of integration with other movements, and which Nazis would have even become Nazis had Hitler not been around.

First, the Nazi Party was for many years in danger of being swamped by other movements. Repeated attempts were made by other right wing parties to raid it or absorb it, and formulate alliances to stop the far more numerous Social Democrats, Socialists and out and out Communists, who each individually outnumbered the far-right parties on their own. Hitler would not hear of it. Each aegis was rejected. Each offer was killed outright or dragged out until it dissolved.

Second, Hitler is one of the reasons Goering joined in the first place. Goebbels was going to find home in some fascist or far-left Party one way or another. He was shopping for extremism to give vent to a variety of convoluted feelings and ideologies. But Goering was not a mortal lock to end up in a Brown Shirt. He too shopped around for a far-right Party, and his hands itched to take action, but the Nazis were just one of many on his shopping list. The first time he met Hitler, Hitler was scheduled to take part in a park rally with other right-wing factions. In typical Hitler fashion, once he (Hitler) realized he was not the headline act on stage, he decided to walk out, but not before saying a few words to the few Party faithful clustered around to explain his reasons. He denounced the park rally as an exercise in empty rhetoric and the park goes as not prepared for real action. And Goering was intrigued by this fast talking intense small man.
 

Deleted member 14881

So, if there's no Hitler or the Nazis Goering could be a Caudillo of Germany with the help of the DNVP.
 
So, if there's no Hitler or the Nazis Goering could be a Caudillo of Germany with the help of the DNVP.

Probably not. The most likely outcome if you're talking a Caudillo situation is a high-ranking current or former military officer takes the reins of power in the name of "preserving order" and all that usual figleaf nonsense.
 
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