Could the Nazis conquer America

Kongzilla

Banned
Is it somehow possible to allow the Germans to conquer America. I know it would be very hard but with a POD of sometime in the 30s could it be doable. I was thinking that maybe Churchill dies in the 30s meaning that Chamberlain is still PM and Britain folds sometime after the Fall of France.

Germany forces almost Versailles type terms on them and turn them into another Puppet.

America falls back into Isolationism.

With some Extra forces and no Lend Lease to Russia the Germans manage to beat them and annex pretty much everything up to the Urals. An almost Puppet like state exists east of that giving the Germans whatever they want.

Hitler turns his eyes to the Americas under thinking to "Unify The Aryan Race"

Is it possible.
 

Pangur

Donor
Is it somehow possible to allow the Germans to conquer America. I know it would be very hard but with a POD of sometime in the 30s could it be doable. I was thinking that maybe Churchill dies in the 30s meaning that Chamberlain is still PM and Britain folds sometime after the Fall of France.

Germany forces almost Versailles type terms on them and turn them into another Puppet.

America falls back into Isolationism.

With some Extra forces and no Lend Lease to Russia the Germans manage to beat them and annex pretty much everything up to the Urals. An almost Puppet like state exists east of that giving the Germans whatever they want.

Hitler turns his eyes to the Americas under thinking to "Unify The Aryan Race"

Is it possible.

There is a stack of reasons why this is not possible

1: How to the get to the US and keep it supplied with the USN on the loose?

2; The US is huge, Germany did not have the armed forces to occupy Russia, Western Europe and still have the troops to invade & hold the US

3; They would also have to attack Canada to protect their flank, almost doubling the problem
 
Abridged answer: no

Full answer: lol no.

expanded answer: What the Fuck I'm rolling on the floor laughing? no.
 
It's utterly ASB for the same reason that Sealion was impossible - the Kriegsmarine was puny, with no real amphibious capability. On top of that, the Germans lost a lot of their fleet in the Norway campaign.

Even if you could butterfly away the RN and RAF, the Germans would just barely be able to get a few divisions into England. And that's only across the Channel. What do you think they would do, use Rhine river barges to send tank units across the Atlantic?

They would need a massive fleet of warships including at least a few aircraft carriers, along with endless supply ships, troopships, and landing craft to even attempt such an adventure. The Germans could not get to the capability to successfully invade the United States for decades, even if they achieved their dreams of a Continental European empire.
 

Nietzsche

Banned
This is less plausible than Sealion by so many hundreds of orders of magnitude. Atleast with Sealion, you can see that, if God decided to just let everything go in favour of Hitler, it could be attempted. It'd probably still fail, but you could actually try to do it.
 
First, if Churchill had died rather than Chamberlain being in charge it probably would have been Halifax that formed a new government when needed. Same result however, negotiated peace not long after the miracle of Dunkirk.

Second, the peace terms would not have been harsh but might have included the forced aquisition of elements of the Royal Navy. On the question of navies I'm guessing an invasion of North America would not take place before the conquest of the Soviets which would probably mean that the ships of Plan Z would have also been available. Quite a sizeable navy if you include German, Italian, French and British elements.
 
But of course. All they need is....lets see.....god those supply lines are gonna be hell.....ummm.....Zeppelins? Yes. Zeppelins. If the Nazi's can invest solely is developing war fleets of Zeppelins, and fly them over the Eastern seaboard, they can threaten collateral damage in massive amounts to the United States, if they attempt to fire on them. Afterwards, they will build more Zeppelins, until the entirety of the Continental US is covered in Zeppelins. One Zeppelin for every 22 people. Of course they would have to develop airborne refueling, but that shouldn't be to hard after all those years of endless Zeppelin production.

Barring that, the whole idea is just silly.
 

Nietzsche

Banned
But of course. All they need is....lets see.....god those supply lines are gonna be hell.....ummm.....Zeppelins? Yes. Zeppelins. If the Nazi's can invest solely is developing war fleets of Zeppelins, and fly them over the Eastern seaboard, they can threaten collateral damage in massive amounts to the United States, if they attempt to fire on them. Afterwards, they will build more Zeppelins, until the entirety of the Continental US is covered in Zeppelins. One Zeppelin for every 22 people. Of course they would have to develop airborne refueling, but that shouldn't be to hard after all those years of endless Zeppelin production.

Barring that, the whole idea is just silly.

"Our Zeppelins will blot out the sun!"

"Then we shall fear fear itself in the shade!"
 

Kongzilla

Banned
First, if Churchill had died rather than Chamberlain being in charge it probably would have been Halifax that formed a new government when needed. Same result however, negotiated peace not long after the miracle of Dunkirk.

Second, the peace terms would not have been harsh but might have included the forced aquisition of elements of the Royal Navy. On the question of navies I'm guessing an invasion of North America would not take place before the conquest of the Soviets which would probably mean that the ships of Plan Z would have also been available. Quite a sizeable navy if you include German, Italian, French and British elements.

Thats what I was thinking, although I probably should have added that. What about the Japanese Fleet, could they still be there kickin around. They'd have to forgo Pearl Harbour though.

For the Manpower issue. They have the entireity of Continental Europe, the Italians have a Good Portion of Africa. The Axis wouldn't have a shortage of Potential slave labour. And for the Military couldn't they just start conscripting people into the Military.

If it takes two decades of Military build up that's fine I didn't set a time frame for it. It doesn't have to happen in 1941. I probably wasn't very clear, my bad.
 

Pangur

Donor
Thats what I was thinking, although I probably should have added that. What about the Japanese Fleet, could they still be there kickin around. They'd have to forgo Pearl Harbour though.

For the Manpower issue. They have the entireity of Continental Europe, the Italians have a Good Portion of Africa. The Axis wouldn't have a shortage of Potential slave labour. And for the Military couldn't they just start conscripting people into the Military.

If it takes two decades of Military build up that's fine I didn't set a time frame for it. It doesn't have to happen in 1941. I probably wasn't very clear, my bad.

Putting guns in the hands of an occupied people will back fire - they will turn their guns on you

Equally its all well and good to have lots of ships, bummer if you don't have crews. Add to that if you push the invasion out to say 1960 then most of the captured ships will be obsolete

Another consideration is that you can't serious expect the US to sit on its butt and not arm? Being isolationist does not mean you don't have a armed force big enough to repel an invasion - more so if you have a Nazi dominated Europe
 
Second, the peace terms would not have been harsh but might have included the forced aquisition of elements of the Royal Navy.
If the Germans couldn't force the Vichy French to hand over their fleet when the Germans had 'em by the balls, then how the hell will they convince the British to surrender their final line of defense when the Germans have yet to acchieve a landing in the UK? Indeed, demanding the British fleet is probably the best way for the Germans to get peace negotiations to collapse.
:rolleyes:
 

Kongzilla

Banned
if the germans beat the RAF, couldn't the Germans just force them to hand over a portion of the fleet. In the vein of "give us your fleet or we'll bomb your cities until the fleets have nothing left to defend. And if you do not a single german soldier will touch your shores." fingers crossed behind their back.
 

Pangur

Donor
If you want to pull this off you would need most of the RN fleet plus crews & the entire British navy.
 
Alright, this one's a bit far-fetched. In fact, its pretty much impossible, but I don't think you'll get much else that isn't:



People to this day are still debating the reason for the Second American Civil War and the collapse of the United States. Following the Allied victory in the First Great War the United States enjoyed itself in a state of leisure and excess during the Roaring 20’s. The good times simply were not to last with the start of the Great Depression, Black Friday; the several block long soup lines and the Dust Bowl.

The event that was the sign of worse things to come was Hoover’s handling of the Bonus Army. After an incident involving Bonus Army members shooting and killing a soldier and two cops Hoover sent the army to break the Bonus Army encampment. The two sides involved in a gun fight with several dead and the camp destroyed by superior army forces. Two days later President Hoover was shot by a assassin starting riots and strikes across the nation and Vice-President declaring marshal law shortly in hopes of bringing order.

America placed its hopes later that year upon New York Governor Franklin Delano Roosevelt. FDR destroyed Curtis in the polls with Curtis only holding Maine and FDR winning in the single greatest electoral and popular landslide of American history. That too was simply not to be as on February 15th the President-Elect was assassinated by Giuseppe Zangara. The events that occurred after the assassination started the Second American Civil War. With death of John Garner of a heart attack the US government is gone replaced by several factions fighting for control of the former United States and to remake the republic of or perhaps one more in their image…

Jump to 1936, the civil war is raging in earnest across the country with foreigners begin backing sides. Mexico and Canada are both suspected of secretly slipping arms and support to friendly forces over the border. Britain and France have pledged not to take any part and are refusing to sell weapons, however volunteers are still trickling in to support their ideology. The big players though are the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany, both of which are funneling large quantities of weapons as well as advisors and even tanks/aircraft to far-left and far-right factions. In July of that year, Germany sends a small army of volunteers, known as the "Condor Legion" to the United States, which would grow in size over the years as they advanced Fascist and white supremacy interests in the war.

In 1940, war has broken out in Europe. Despite their conflict in North America, Stalin decides to stay neutral and play the Germans against the allies by providing them with the raw materials they need in exchange for a non-aggression pact. Britain uses her navy to cut off the Germans in America, but the Nazis and their "friends" manage to hold on nevertheless. After Germany's stunning victory in France and Japan's invasion of their colonies, Britain signs a peace deal late in the year which frees France but places harsh conditions against them and cedes territory to Germany (though Britain is left untouched).

With the war at home won, Hitler becomes obsessed with realizing a Fascist German-dominated United States. Against the advice of his generals, he orders massive increases in intervention forces in the USA, with entire armored divisions being shifted over by the end of 1941. Britain is angered and threatens to blockade them on several occasions, but doesn't take action due the fear that Germany will invade France again and the fact that Japan is proving to be much more more difficult to defeat than they expected. Meanwhile Stalin, so greatly alarmed by the speed with which the Germans overran France and troubled by the dismal performance of Soviet Union's armies in Finland, begins halting support for the leftists in the United States in order to appease the Nazis.

By 1943, nearly the entirety of the United States has been conquered, and the Germans put a puppet Fascist regime in power while keeping soldiers in the country to enforce their will and combat the powerful resistance movements throughout the country. Dissidents are used as slave labor, as the nation is exploited for oil, grain and raw materials by the Germans. The Final Solution are brought over to the United States, and expanded to include African Americans. Millions would die in Hitler's quest to "purify" the racially tainted USA, and transform it into Germany's perfect Aryan ally. Meanwhile, with the help of the Soviet Union, Japanese forces in Asia are defeated and their navy loses control of the oil sources.

In 1946, the United States is finally liberated, when an combined alliance of Britain, France and the Soviet Union defeat Germany. Though reconstruction efforts take initially take place, these are quickly drained of funding as a Cold War develops between Britain and the Soviet Union when Stalin puts Communist Party of China in control after moping up the Japanese. Nuclear weapons are developed during this period, preventing all-out war due to their destructiveness.

The United States becomes an impoverished and backwards nation wracked by violent coups and political disunity. Britain struggles to hold together her empire and those of her allies as Soviet backed independence movements rebel against their colonists. They eventually "lose" the cold war during the 1980s when military over-spending causes their economies to crash and capitalist governments begin collapsing in Europe.

Skip ahead to the present, 2013. The United States was slow to adopt socialist reforms, but has managed to do so, though keeping a less authoritarian government. But over the last few decades, the nation has seen rapid development of its economy as it takes advantage of its cheap labor and abundant natural resources. The USA is seen as a prospective rival superpower to the Soviet Union in the future.

They do provide some support to their "allies" the Canadians, who have become a stagnant impoverished country clinging to capitalist ways; but not too much, since even the USA acknowledges that their government is a bit crazy.
 
if the germans beat the RAF, couldn't the Germans just force them to hand over a portion of the fleet. In the vein of "give us your fleet or we'll bomb your cities until the fleets have nothing left to defend. And if you do not a single german soldier will touch your shores." fingers crossed behind their back.

No.

And even if somehow they mind control the British into handing over ships, this is so close to impossible that it makes me wonder if you've done any study at all of the economic-industrial power (and thus potential military power) of the US in this period.

This makes the gorram Frisian Option look plausible.

And if you don't get the reference: Sufficient to say, if you want to make the Allied invasion/liberation of Europe fail, that approach is the way to go. It's that bad.

And "Nazi conquest of America" - hell, Nazi invasion of America - is even worse.
 
If the Germans couldn't force the Vichy French to hand over their fleet when the Germans had 'em by the balls, then how the hell will they convince the British to surrender their final line of defense when the Germans have yet to acchieve a landing in the UK? Indeed, demanding the British fleet is probably the best way for the Germans to get peace negotiations to collapse.
:rolleyes:
This is how I read this one:

  • The British and French governments approach the Italians just days after the end of the evacuation to act as mediators between the allies and Germany.
  • Peace terms are agreed, the allied governments maintained but they both have to give territory including naval bases in Iceland and some areas of North Africa. The Germans must be allowed influence within both the parliaments of France and Britain and the promise that neither will interfere with Germany's plans for expansion in the East.
  • Italy manages to conquer Greece without German assistance as it has more troops free with the release of the African forces. This allows Barbarossa to go ahead earlier, the German forces managing to do more damage in the first season of the invasion.
  • The conquest of the Soviets takes longer than expected but is complete by the end of 1943. Germany can call on the help of several foreign divisions raised in both Britain and France.
  • Meanwhile in the US the 1940 election is reversed and FDR is defeated. The gearing up for war is halted until a "surprise" attack happens at Pearl Harbour.
  • Japan can concentate on the US (no British, Australian, New Zealand, Indian troops and no Burma, Singapore etc.). The US can concentrate on Japan, no need to worry about Europe so the Pacific war drags on to at least 1945 ... however the Manhatten project takes longer as there is no British involvement so the invasion of the Japonese mainland is required to ensure US victory.
  • By 1944 the Germans have a much stronger Navy, the tech they have is much better than the US, tanks, jet fighters and bombers, missiles etc. (The US development has been geared towards amphibious assault, naval air combat ... well you can take a guess at this). The Germans may even have been close to atomic bombs with the assistance of the Brits.
  • The peoples of Western Europe have now had four years to get used to German influence, rather than being conquered they are slowly being assimilated into the thousand year Reich.
The scene is now set for the next great conquest.
 
Four years "to get used to German influence" enough for it to sink in.

I can't even make up words to describe that, and that's assuming Skippy is a hypnotist on a massive scale.
 

Kongzilla

Banned
Just use Heydrich, he was good at it I hear. They won't be happy but they won't be blowing up factories and stuff.
 
Just use Heydrich, he was good at it I hear. They won't be happy but they won't be blowing up factories and stuff.

Germans have no hope of beating the US navy. I still think the only hope is some sort of Spanish Civil War scenario in America after some sort of ASBish collapse.
 
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