Could the HRE have absorbed Hungary and Poland?

[Eurofed]

While I agree that a weaker/more divided Poland in a situation where the HRE is stronger than OTL might be naturally drawn towards the HRE, I do not think simply having a stronger HRE would do it - especially with the fact Imperial attention is going to be on Italy and Germany for at least as long as it took OTL Poland to reunite simply for the empire's own sake - making sure that the Imperial house is in order is more important than what the Poles do or don't do, and a stronger Empire doesn't increase German migration abroad. Now obviously the 15th century will be different, but if Poland stays divided longer than OTL, that's different than if the Empire simply is stronger than OTL.

Well, I easily agree that you have a point about the timescale implied. To assimilate *all* or *most* of Poland, the optimal combination of a stronger HRE and a weaker Poland might quite possibly be warranted.

However IOTL Silesia was absorbed, with less favorable condtions than these, and not much of a focused effort by the decentralized HRE that remained mostly focused on its domestic issues.

So I am driven to think that even with just one of these divergencies, a stronger HRE or a weaker Poland, the most likely consequence would be an Imperial-Polish border pushed somewhat eastward, and at least one more of the Polish duchies being absorbed. For geopolitical reasons, I assume this would most likely be Greater Poland, but it might admittably be Lesser Poland instead.

Aside Note: in the very long term (a few centuries), I do assume a stronger HRE, being a wealthier, more politically stable state, would thus experience a greater population growth, and hence have a greater potential pool for migration abroad. Admittedly, this might not make much of a difference in the 13th-14th century.

By the 15th century and later, however, there might easily be more Imperial would-be settlers around. Of course, they might quite possibly go to Imperial colonies in the Americas, instead of Poland and Hungary-Croatia (and/or conquered North Africa, for that matter).

Why so? Certainly German culture will have influence outside its borders, but that's looking at the long term effects of how Nuremburg (the closest thing to an Imperial capital - we can pick some other city but it's easiest to use that for the sake of this discussion) is a rival to Paris than how a united Empire is inevitably enticiing to nonGermans.

True, but this is not the point. A stronger HRE may find easier to drive Hungary to vassaldom or dynastic union as it concerns the political field. Say what happened IOTL, but centuries earlier, and with the whole Empire being much more able than the German Hasburg principality to keep Hungary bound in lasting political union.

As it concerns the demographic/cultural field, for the reasons given above, it may easily happen that the OTL German-Italian migration patterns in Hungary-Croatia get somewhat enhanced. Admittedly, this may easily result in those areas becoming even more of a demographic patchwork than OTL, rather than full or even prevailing Imperial cultural assimilation.

And yet while French fashions and styles were enormously influential, the areas outside medieval France that turned French or even friendly to France is fairly limited. To use the OTL example of this process.

True, but this was an aside in the first place. Basically, I was saying that, yes, ITTL we may expect Imperial culture to be pretty awesome in the European landscape, an equivalent of Renaissance Italy and 17th century France, quite likely a combination of both. It is agreed this would have negligible effects on the HRE being a more successful conqueror or placing more of its settlers in foreign lands.

Don't get me wrong here, I think Poland in a stronger Empire scenario is entirely possible - just that you seem to be thinking that the natural process is the same as your preferred scenario, where it would would take active thwarting of destiny to keep Poland out of the HRE.

Let's put it this way:

- with a stronger HRE OR a weaker Poland, IMO it would take active thwarting of destiny to make the Imperial border any worse than the 1914 one, and the most likely outcome is the 1793 Polish-Prussian one.

- with a stronger HRE AND a weaker Poland, IMO it would take active thwarting of destiny to make the Imperial border any worse than the 1793 Polish-Prussian one, and the most likely outcome is the Narew-Vistula one.

- anything better than this is quite liable to various kinds of butterflies.

 

[Fredrick II Barbarossa]

Wait why are all of you ignoring Sigismund Luxemborg he came close right.

 

[kasumigenx]

Wait why are all of you ignoring Sigismund Luxemborg he came close right.

If you want Sigismund to succeed have Elisabeth of Bosnia married to the son of Dusan and have Louis of Hungary die childless.

 

[Elfwine]

Well, I easily agree that you have a point about the timescale implied. To assimilate *all* or *most* of Poland, the optimal combination of a stronger HRE and a weaker Poland might quite possibly be warranted.

However IOTL Silesia was absorbed, with less favorable condtions than these, and not much of a focused effort by the decentralized HRE that remained mostly focused on its domestic issues.

But that was by Bohemia, not the HRE on the whole, and Bohemia absorbing more of Poland would be difficult - it had its own issues and other ambitions.

So I am driven to think that even with just one of these divergencies, a stronger HRE or a weaker Poland, the most likely consequence would be an Imperial-Polish border pushed somewhat eastward, and at least one more of the Polish duchies being absorbed. For geopolitical reasons, I assume this would most likely be Greater Poland, but it might admittably be Lesser Poland instead.

A stronger HRE might lead to it. A weaker Poland, alone, no. Although it depends on what that means exactly.

Aside Note: in the very long term (a few centuries), I do assume a stronger HRE, being a wealthier, more politically stable state, would thus experience a greater population growth, and hence have a greater potential pool for migration abroad. Admittedly, this might not make much of a difference in the 13th-14th century.

This is probably true (or at least feasible), but by that point, Poland has probably reunited, and a united Kingdom of Poland being absorbed would be more difficult than the individual duchies. Not impossible - but not just a natural consequence of German migration and Imperial ambitions.

By the 15th century and later, however, there might easily be more Imperial would-be settlers around. Of course, they might quite possibly go to Imperial colonies in the Americas, instead of Poland and Hungary-Croatia (and/or conquered North Africa, for that matter).

Yeah. Or travel within the Reich - which is not facing much danger of overpopulation.

True, but this is not the point. A stronger HRE may find easier to drive Hungary to vassaldom or dynastic union as it concerns the political field. Say what happened IOTL, but centuries earlier, and with the whole Empire being much more able than the German Hasburg principality to keep Hungary bound in lasting political union.

That took certain things that may or may not happen TTL (could certainly happen, but we can't assume a personal union happens to begin with as a given) to get started, however.

It's a legitimate scenario, and I fully support the plausibility - just that it might well not happen even if the Empire could do it, just as there's no personal union between the Empire and England.

As it concerns the demographic/cultural field, for the reasons given above, it may easily happen that the OTL German-Italian migration patterns in Hungary-Croatia get somewhat enhanced. Admittedly, this may easily result in those areas becoming even more of a demographic patchwork than OTL, rather than full or even prevailing Imperial cultural assimilation.

Possible, this is an area I know less on than the influence in the north (Poland and the Baltic).

True, but this was an aside in the first place. Basically, I was saying that, yes, ITTL we may expect Imperial culture to be pretty awesome in the European landscape, an equivalent of Renaissance Italy and 17th century France, quite likely a combination of both. It is agreed this would have negligible effects on the HRE being a more successful conqueror or placing more of its settlers in foreign lands.

Yeah. It's certainly a powerful influence on Mitteleuropa, but this may or may not be the same as political influence of the sort discussed. The possibilities need further exploring to answer that (further than simply "The empire is the empire", that is).

Let's put it this way:

- with a stronger HRE OR a weaker Poland, IMO it would take active thwarting of destiny to make the Imperial border any worse than the 1914 one, and the most likely outcome is the 1793 Polish-Prussian one.

I disagree. This is assuming the HRE pushes east, or doesn't have to bother to push east, to make it happen.

- with a stronger HRE AND a weaker Poland, IMO it would take active thwarting of destiny to make the Imperial border any worse than the 1793 Polish-Prussian one, and the most likely outcome is the Narew-Vistula one.

See above complaint.

- anything better than this is quite liable to various kinds of butterflies.

We do agree completely on this.

 

[Eurofed]

But that was by Bohemia, not the HRE on the whole, and Bohemia absorbing more of Poland would be difficult - it had its own issues and other ambitions.

True, but ITTL it may also be the HRE as a whole. Even if it happens in its "formative period", when the vast majority of ist energies need to be focused on Germany and Italy, IOTL it didn't take Bohemia that many energies to grab Silesia.

A stronger HRE might lead to it. A weaker Poland, alone, no. Although it depends on what that means exactly.

You may have a point here.

This is probably true (or at least feasible), but by that point, Poland has probably reunited, and a united Kingdom of Poland being absorbed would be more difficult than the individual duchies. Not impossible - but not just a natural consequence of German migration and Imperial ambitions.

Of course (it was an aside though). Absorption of Poland as a whole, yes, although even a united Kingdom of Poland would have rather serious trouble defending its integrity against an Empire any interested in eastern expansion. Unless it succeeds in uniting Poland, Lithuania, and Hungary, and/or reap very strong allies, it shall always be quite the underdog.

Yeah. Or travel within the Reich - which is not facing much danger of overpopulation.

Well, again this is an aside issue that spans several centuries. But I make a comparison with OTL Early Modern European powers, which never seemed to have any trouble raising up sizable numbers of settlers for the colonies, despite not technically facing overpopulation.

That took certain things that may or may not happen TTL (could certainly happen, but we can't assume a personal union happens to begin with as a given) to get started, however.

It's a legitimate scenario, and I fully support the plausibility - just that it might well not happen even if the Empire could do it, just as there's no personal union between the Empire and England.

True. Although the prestige of the Empire is going to be very high, eclipsing even OTL Habsburg as their height, so the Emperors should be able to reap several favourable marriages. Therefore a personal union or two somewhere, down the line, is a reasonable expectation. Of course, no guarantee it shall be Hungary, Although it might be different if they actively focus their marriage policy on a country (the way the Iberic states pursued their dynastic union).

I disagree. This is assuming the HRE pushes east, or doesn't have to bother to push east, to make it happen.

See above complaint.

I have to disagree with your disagreement. Given the circumstances, it would mean the Empire takes even less interest in/makes even less of an effort for eastern expansion than OTL, effectively almost none at all.

Honestly I cannot see how such a dire neglect would be a moderately-probable butterfly, so I'd call it "destiny thwarting".

The likely clash with France to restore the Carolingian empire, colonial development, and trade/expansionist concerns in the Med cannot absorb all their energies and interest that much, again given the comparison with OTL powers.

With a much stronger HRE, the survival of a lessened Poland (at least on its western side) is a reasonable non-handpicked butterfly. Its keeping anything much better than the 1914 or 1793 western border, not really.

It might happen, but for it to happen, I'd expect the TL author to admit he's handpicking Pole-friendly butterflies for story purposes (not that there is anything bad about it).

 

[Elfwine]

True, but ITTL it may also be the HRE as a whole. Even if it happens in its "formative period", when the vast majority of ist energies need to be focused on Germany and Italy, IOTL it didn't take Bohemia that many energies to grab Silesia.

It may be - but it may also not be. And of course, someone - let's call him Frederick III - securing it does not mean it lasts, anymore than Henry II and Scotland did (picked as something with an ending as something more appropriate to a HRE success story than how Edward II blew his father's gains)

Of course (it was an aside though). Absorption of Poland as a whole, yes, although even a united Kingdom of Poland would have rather serious trouble defending its integrity against an Empire any interested in eastern expansion. Unless it succeeds in uniting Poland, Lithuania, and Hungary, and/or reap very strong allies, it shall always be quite the underdog.

Underdog, but not necessarily a mere snack. The Empire is large in territory, but in population is comparable to France, and that's measuring from Holstein to Tuscany.

Nevertheless, a HRE determined to do it, and in a position to not be more troubled within than without, has a healthy chance of success here, although probably not enough to Germanize the place (Will German culture be influential? Yes. Crushingly dominant? No.)

Well, again this is an aside issue that spans several centuries. But I make a comparison with OTL Early Modern European powers, which never seemed to have any trouble raising up sizable numbers of settlers for the colonies, despite not technically facing overpopulation.

Sizable is relative, though. All the breeding and immigration to, for instance, the Thirteen American Colonies, leads to at most about two million whites in something over a century and a half.

Obviously the Reich than Great Britain, but it bears noting.

True. Although the prestige of the Empire is going to be very high, eclipsing even OTL Habsburg as their height, so the Emperors should be able to reap several favourable marriages. Therefore a personal union or two somewhere, down the line, is a reasonable expectation. Of course, no guarantee it shall be Hungary, Although it might be different if they actively focus their marriage policy on a country (the way the Iberic states pursued their dynastic union).

"Favorable marriage" and "personal union" are not the same thing, though. No matter how vigorously the Staufen try to tie their house and the House of Arpad together, that doesn't guarantee the right combination to get one man as the heir to both thrones. The Habsburgs got lucky, luck is not to be relied on here - it's possible, but we shouldn't assume it's probable.

I have to disagree with your disagreement. Given the circumstances, it would mean the Empire takes even less interest in/makes even less of an effort for eastern expansion than OTL, effectively almost none at all.

And this is imminently reasonable for an empire whose main rival and main interests are to the west, and who has much more to gain in Burgundy and Champagne and Flanders than the Baltic.

Honestly I cannot see how such a dire neglect would be a moderately-probable butterfly, so I'd call it "destiny thwarting".

The likely clash with France to restore the Carolingian empire, colonial development, and trade/expansionist concerns in the Med cannot absorb all their energies and interest that much, again given the comparison with OTL powers.

As stated again below for emphasis, France is a peer. Which means that yes, it can. Easily.

Not to mention that there's nothing "dire" about the Empire focusing on the West. I know that you love Germany-absorbs-Poland, but that doesn't make it something that the Emperors will want when the Carolingian Empire Must Be Rebuilt thing draws them to avoid wars with Poland or Hungary so as to not have to divide their efforts and energies.

With a much stronger HRE, the survival of a lessened Poland (at least on its western side) is a reasonable non-handpicked butterfly. Its keeping anything much better than the 1914 or 1793 western border, not really.

A stronger HRE does not automatically mean "A HRE pushing East". Poland got gobbled OTL in circumstances that were a definite Pole-screw, with Prussia and Austria being decidedly eastern German powers without the ability to push west like a united HRE could feasibly attempt.

If it is pushing east, then yes - but the idea that the HRE is going to be looking to annex Poland makes less sense than just about any other course that will inspire Imperial interest and energies - especially when the war with France is a war with a peer, not a less power, for the majority of the period we're looking at (1300-1800 or so).

It might happen, but for it to happen, I'd expect the TL author to admit he's handpicking Pole-friendly butterflies for story purposes (not that there is anything bad about it).

Not at all. The Empire is going to be looking westward, not eastward. Why is it going to try to slice off pieces of Poland just to fulfill the Teutonophile desire of some writers to eliminate Slavdom?

I acknowledge I stated that (underlined) about six different ways, but its something that seems to be ignored in your arguments in favor of the idea that the HRE will naturally behave towards the east as OTL Prussia did.

That I think is the area we're in disagreement on - will the HRE spend the energies and attention necessary for a permanently annexed/vassalized Poland?

It certainly can - but that doesn't mean there will be the interest in doing so.

 

[Eurofed]

It may be - but it may also not be. And of course, someone - let's call him Frederick III - securing it does not mean it lasts, anymore than Henry II and Scotland did (picked as something with an ending as something more appropriate to a HRE success story than how Edward II blew his father's gains).

Theoretically true, but in practice the power differential is more skewed in favor of the Empire than for England. This makes easier to make it last.

Underdog, but not necessarily a mere snack. The Empire is large in territory, but in population is comparable to France, and that's measuring from Holstein to Tuscany.

Well, I necessarily measure from Holstein to Sicily, at least with a Staufen Empire, but it does not make than much of a difference.

A united Poland would be an underdog, not necessarily a mere snack (a disunited Poland is a different matter) but on its own (i.e. without unions with Lithuania and/or Hungary) shall always in all likelihood be among the weakest states on the Empire's borders, in comparison to the HRE, similar to Denmark without the Kalmar Union.

This bears weight as it concerns the choice of expansion targets, albeit secondary/subsidiary ones (we may agree that the West, and the colonies past a point, shall be the main ones).

Nevertheless, a HRE determined to do it, and in a position to not be more troubled within than without, has a healthy chance of success here, although probably not enough to Germanize the place (Will German culture be influential? Yes. Crushingly dominant? No.)

This depends on which areas we look at, though: I may agree on the lack of overwhelming Germanization in Masovia and maybe Lesser Poland too, no matter what happens in the political field between the Empire and Poland, but I also see Silesia, Greater Poland, and Prussia thoroughly Germanized.

Sizable is relative, though. All the breeding and immigration to, for instance, the Thirteen American Colonies, leads to at most about two million whites in something over a century and a half.

Obviously the Reich than Great Britain, but it bears noting.

Theoretically speaking, given the period population densities, though, it's enough to Imperialize/colonize a fairly big chunk of the world. I may easily see the HRE creating a colonial empire as big as the British or Iberian ones.

"Favorable marriage" and "personal union" are not the same thing, though. No matter how vigorously the Staufen try to tie their house and the House of Arpad together, that doesn't guarantee the right combination to get one man as the heir to both thrones. The Habsburgs got lucky, luck is not to be relied on here - it's possible, but we shouldn't assume it's probable.

True, there is no guarantee that it happens - for any specific target as Hungary anyway. I daresay that given the circumstances, it is to be expected they get lucky that way, once or twice, somewhere.

And this is imminently reasonable for an empire whose main rival and main interests are to the west, and who has much more to gain in Burgundy and Champagne and Flanders than the Baltic.

Main interest does not mean all the energies, efforts, and interests of the Empire have to be exclusively fixaetd on France, even if it likely becomes the main concern. This still leaves plenty of room for secondary and subsidiary ones, especially when France proves to be not so easy. If one looks at the foreign policy of OTL European powers, it was never that one-sided. And if the Baltic is not so valuable as French land, it is still valuable enough, and far easier to pick, even with leftover resources.

As stated again below for emphasis, France is a peer. Which means that yes, it can. Easily.

But no OTL rival power of France ever adopted such a one-sided foreign policy. Not England, not Spain, not Austria. It becomes a challenge to see why the Empire should act differently, and neglect all other theaters, for a monomaniacal fixation on Paris.

Not to mention that there's nothing "dire" about the Empire focusing on the West. I know that you love Germany-absorbs-Poland, but that doesn't make it something that the Emperors will want when the Carolingian Empire Must Be Rebuilt thing draws them to avoid wars with Poland or Hungary so as to not have to divide their efforts and energies.

A focus is different from a fanatical fixation, though. I simply cannot see the Empire remaining spellbound on conquest of France, in all likelihood a complex and frustrating task, for more than half a millennium, to the continued utter neglect of other potential, and much easier targets. A great power's foreign policy is typically much more multifaceted than that, esp. when it does not face an existential situation.

A stronger HRE does not automatically mean "A HRE pushing East". Poland got gobbled OTL in circumstances that were a definite Pole-screw, with Prussia and Austria being decidedly eastern German powers without the ability to push west like a united HRE could feasibly attempt.

I may point out a) that I'm simply arguing for the near-inevitability of pre-WWII political/ethnic borders of Poland being pushed somewhat eastward than OTL, and its complete absorption is a different case, which I acknowledge it may or may not happen b) OTL Prussia and Austria had all kinds of concerns of their own with France, but that certainly didn't stop them from caring about the East, too.

If it is pushing east, then yes - but the idea that the HRE is going to be looking to annex Poland makes less sense than just about any other course that will inspire Imperial interest and energies - especially when the war with France is a war with a peer, not a less power, for the majority of the period we're looking at (1300-1800 or so).

So ? France was a peer for its OTL rivals, too, and they acted quite differently.

While France may be the juicest prize for the Empire, it shall also be the toughest one to pick, so it makes sense that from time to time, it shifts to partially focus on different, easier targets, valuable in their own way, if less so.

 

[Snake Featherston]

If you ask my opinion, with a stronger (more centralized) HRE and/or weaker (more fragmented) Poland than OTL, the highest probability outcome ("natural" in this sense) is for a bigger chunk of Poland to get culturally and politically assimilated by the Empire, by the same parallel processes that happened IOTL, only enhanced in these circumstances.

As it concerns Bohemia, Silesia, and Greater Poland, IMO butterflies would have to really go out of their way to prevent their complete absorption in the HRE, and snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, so to speak. It would otherwise happen without need of any serious focus on eastern expansion by the Emperors ("natural" in this sense, too). Masovia would require a somewhat more serious purposeful effort by the Empire, or the right dynastic/diplomatic/military butterflies. Lesser Poland is a halfway case, it might go both ways, depending on butterflies.

Hungary and Croatia are like eastern Poland, but only rather more so. Their political assimilation is feasible, but it requires a rather serious Imperial focus on eastern expansion, and/or the right dynastic/diplomatic/military butterflies, which also need to involve whomever rules in Constantinople acting in the right way.

It is also most likely that those areas would get kinda more culturally assimilated than OTL, quite possibly in a patchwork way, as circumstances make the same processes that affected Transylvania and Dalmatia more successful.

It's not (mostly) an issue of Imperial culture being so awesome, rather of reciprocal strength. However, I may point out that a centralized HRE would inevitably be one of the most powerful and wealthy European states, and its prestige would be proportionally bigger. As things typically went in premodern European powers, power, wealth, and prestige would eventually translate into a sizable degree of cultural supremacy, as scholars and artists flock to the Imperial court, the Emperors and magnates give them patronage, and so on.

So why did the partitions fail to erase Polish cultural identity given the three states that partitioned it were all obviously stronger than Poland to start with?

 

[Snake Featherston]

This was quite feasible at some degree. The most likely and "natural" way to do so would require a successful centralization of the HRE under the Ottonians or Staufen (which by the way, would all but surely ensure the cultural assimilation of Bohemia as well), and for Poland, a deeper, longer-lasting fragmentation of the Polish kingdom in duchies.

As it concerns Poland, it would imply a greater success of the cultural and political assimilation process that happened IOTL for Silesia. Basically speaking, during the divided Poland period, at least the duchy of Greater Poland, quite likely the duchy of Krakow as well, would be incorporated in the centralized HRE and culturally assimilated the way it happened for the duchy of Silesia. Quite possibly, a duchy of Masovia would eventually follow their path in these conditions. Anyway it is dubious Masovia alone would be enough to ensure the survival of a Polish kingdom/nation-state down the line; it might or might not happen if Lesser Poland remains independent as well; but without Silesia and Greater Poland, a surviving Poland would be at best much lessened, and its geopolitical balance pushed east and south.

As it concerns Hungary-Croatia, its political assimilation by a centralized HRE (by dynastic means or vassallization) would be quite feasible and perhaps even likely, unless it becomes a buffer state between the HRE and whatever polity fills the Byzantine/Ottoman geopolitical niche. The likelihood of its cultural assimilation is a bit more dubious than for (western) Poland and Bohemia, although by no means unfeasible. Even in the much less favorable OTL conditions, a sizable German community developed in Transylvania, and a sizable Italian community in Dalmatia; the same kind of thing, to a greater degree, would happen here.

IMO, assimilation of Bohemia, Greater Poland, and Silesia would happen "naturally" anyway as a high-probability butterfly of a centralized HRE. Masovia would require a more serious fragmentation of Poland, some conscious effort from the HRE, or the right butterflies. Lesser Poland is a halfway case. Hungary-Croatia would require a serious degree of conscious effort from the HRE, its not being too distracted elsewhere (e.g. against France), and/or the right butterflies.

So when centralized Austria, Prussia, and Russia all partitioned Poland, this did not happen or affect any of them because of what? What does the HRE have to offer that Imperial Russia, already the largest state in terms of European empires at the time Catherine II was partitioning Poland, does not? What does it have to offer, for that matter, that both Austria and Prussia did not?

 

[kasumigenx]

Perhaps Poland will be a part of HRE if it lost Lesser Poland in a battle against Lev I of Galicia.

 

[Ultima Ratio]

Hey, I'm bumping this, I hope you guys don't mind.

I don't know much about Poland, but with Hungary it is very much plausible, with an earlier POD. I'm thinking of two things.

Either Stephen I receives his crown not from the Pope himself, but the Emperor, with papal blessing. With the crown, he gains HRE support for his war against Hungarian pagans, but is only an elector count and not a true king. For this, Koppány, his uncle and leader of pagan Magyars should do much better to warrant Western aid.

The other idea is Hungarians refusing to convert after the defeats and get invaded by HRE. It will possibly be a long and bloody war, but if the Germans manage to subdue and convert them, the lands may be incorporated into the HRE. Germanized population, much like the Prussians, ruled by perhaps some crown prince or any Hungarian noble that converted early on and joined the Germans in the war.

This is my first post, I hope it's not entirely ASB.

 

[Kulkasha]

This is my first post, I hope it's not entirely ASB.

It's not, thanks for the illumination! There was, in fact, a precedent for German invasion into the Magyar Plain, as the Franks attempted for nearly a century to subdue the Moravians and the Avars, IIRC. So it's certainly not logistically impossible.

 

[Ultima Ratio]

It's not, thanks for the illumination! There was, in fact, a precedent for German invasion into the Magyar Plain, as the Franks attempted for nearly a century to subdue the Moravians and the Avars, IIRC. So it's certainly not logistically impossible.

Especially if part of the local population is willing to convert and Germanize. I can totally see it as a kind of earlier Prussia. Seeing that IOTL the region was converted in a very short time, we can assume that it could be incorporated into the HRE just as fast. The question is: how does this affect the Mongol invasion?

 

[Elfwine]

Especially if part of the local population is willing to convert and Germanize. I can totally see it as a kind of earlier Prussia. Seeing that IOTL the region was converted in a very short time, we can assume that it could be incorporated into the HRE just as fast. The question is: how does this affect the Mongol invasion?

Giant killer butterflies.

Also, Prussia was not a matter of "willing to convert and Germanize", it was a matter of being forced to convert and Germanize.

Plus, Hungary is considerably larger than Prussia.

 

[Ultima Ratio]

Giant killer butterflies.

Also, Prussia was not a matter of "willing to convert and Germanize", it was a matter of being forced to convert and Germanize.

Plus, Hungary is considerably larger than Prussia.

Yes, but since it is also more willing, it may be possible to integrate it to the HRE in a relatively short time.

What I'm thinking is if the Mongol invasion could be repelled? IOTL the Mongols had trouble taking walled cities and fortresses, of which Hungary did not have too much. In fact, it was the Mongol invasion that prompted the building of these, as all nobles were required to build fortifications in exchange for land, should the Mongols return. They did return, and were soundly beaten by a more coherent force. The Mongols also had a hard time fighting heavy cavalry and crossbows, they suffered heavy casualties in the battle of Mohi. The fact that they eventually won such a devastating victory is mostly due to horrible Hungarian leadership and small number of knights. So what if there is a large number of German knights and heavy crossbows present at the battle, with a leader who knows what he is doing? The site of battle favored Western armies, so a German Hungary is likely to make a stand here as well.

Maybe the Verecke pass would also be more heavily fortified than IOTL, where the Mongols easily broke through. So, what if they suffer heavy casualties at Verecke, and are weakened when they reach Mohi, where a considerably large force is waiting for them?

Even if the Germans lose, the more fortified cities means that the Mongols do less damage when rampaging through the country than IOTL. The slaughtered population could be replaced by German settler, just like IOTL, only in larger numbers. With the fear of the return of the Mongols, the region might as well be the most militarized part of the Empire, which could prove useful once the Ottomans start rolling in.

I could even see a Germanized Árpád line taking the place of the Habsburgs in history, with a major battle against the Turks fought at Buda and not Vienna.

Thoughts?

ps: I am quite intrigued by this idea, do you guys think I should open a ne discussion thread about this specific idea?

 

[Elfwine]

Yes, but since it is also more willing, it may be possible to integrate it to the HRE in a relatively short time.

Why is it more willing, though?

What I'm thinking is if the Mongol invasion could be repelled? IOTL the Mongols had trouble taking walled cities and fortresses, of which Hungary did not have too much. In fact, it was the Mongol invasion that prompted the building of these, as all nobles were required to build fortifications in exchange for land, should the Mongols return. They did return, and were soundly beaten by a more coherent force. The Mongols also had a hard time fighting heavy cavalry and crossbows, they suffered heavy casualties in the battle of Mohi. The fact that they eventually won such a devastating victory is mostly due to horrible Hungarian leadership and small number of knights. So what if there is a large number of German knights and heavy crossbows present at the battle, with a leader who knows what he is doing? The site of battle favored Western armies, so a German Hungary is likely to make a stand here as well.

Maybe the Verecke pass would also be more heavily fortified than IOTL, where the Mongols easily broke through. So, what if they suffer heavy casualties at Verecke, and are weakened when they reach Mohi, where a considerably large force is waiting for them?

Even if the Germans lose, the more fortified cities means that the Mongols do less damage when rampaging through the country than IOTL. The slaughtered population could be replaced by German settler, just like IOTL, only in larger numbers. With the fear of the return of the Mongols, the region might as well be the most militarized part of the Empire, which could prove useful once the Ottomans start rolling in.

I could even see a Germanized Árpád line taking the place of the Habsburgs in history, with a major battle against the Turks fought at Buda and not Vienna.

Thoughts?

ps: I am quite intrigued by this idea, do you guys think I should open a ne discussion thread about this specific idea?

I think so. "Germanized Hungary" whether tied to the HRE or having essentially gone its own way in two hundred plus years is worth exploring, although I think you overestimate how easy that kind of thing would be.

 

[Ultima Ratio]

Why is it more willing, though?

I'm just assuming, since the conversion went down pretty fast IOTL.

I think so. "Germanized Hungary" whether tied to the HRE or having essentially gone its own way in two hundred plus years is worth exploring, although I think you overestimate how easy that kind of thing would be.

I am in no way expert on the subject, so perhaps some people more well versed could share their ideas.

 

[Elfwine]

I'm just assuming, since the conversion went down pretty fast IOTL.

Well, conversion is one thing, Germanicization is more difficult (although it being drawn into the German sphere wouldn't be impossible with strong emperors and other reasons to look west).

I am in no way expert on the subject, so perhaps some people more well versed could share their ideas.

The main thing I can think of is that generally you see this kind of process taking some time - see Silesia more than Prussia as an example of a peaceful transition to "Germanized".