Could the HRE have absorbed Hungary and Poland?
- Thread starter Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy
- Start date
Matthew Corvinus, George of Podebrady...here, just look at this list.
Huh. Sounds definitely "largely dynastic, but . . ." to me.
In order for the HRE to absorb a neighbouring state said state needs to be weaker than the Empire/Emperor.
The best way to do that would be early PODs that produce more a fragmented Poland or Hungary.
One way would be for Poland to never unify as a single kingdom - lots of duchies and such with the westernmost being absorbed like Bohemia.
Then have a King/High Duke of Bohemia become HRE and he could start adding the remainder.
There are SO many things I could say here...
I'll just go with the standards:
Remember when you point one finger at someone you get three pointing back at you.
&
Pot, meet kettle.
From this point forward, THINK before you post.
At alate POD, I think that Poland might be hard/impossible, but early renaissance dynastic connections might make it possible for one of the kings of Hungary to inherit Austria, and thus be a prime candidate for being elected emperor. If the Hungarian line ruled for a few generations, and continued to be well liked in Hungary, then they might attempt to give Hungary a position in the electorate, in order to guarentee additional support for thieir dynasty. This in turn may or may not create lasting changes for Hungary, but I think that it would count as absortion as defined by the OP.
Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy
Banned
If Poland is integrated in the HRE then yes, definitely, but then the first question is whether they'd be invited to the Baltic coast (and before that Transylvania) to begin with if Poland and Hungary are members of the HRE. I'm not sure what the background for those decisions was in OTL and what alternatives may present themselves in this different political context.
Since people have asked what would happen to Croatia, I'll do a northern variation of that and ask what you guys think would happen to Halych-Volhynia.
United Poland (or different political landscape) in early 13th century pretty much butterflies away invitation of Teutonic Order, since they were invited by duke of Masovia, who wasn't powerful enough to deal with Prussians by himself.
I was thinking if the other way round could be possible: the "Teutonic State" is integrated into the Empire, and later in order to have Imperial protection against the Knights the rulers of the Polish principalities eventually accept the Emperor as their overlord (I'm assuming that it would be easier if we keep Poland fragmented).
Well, there's a pretty good argument that Poland was being absorbed into Germany as late as 1200. Not absorbed like Bohemia per se; it was more akin to the first stages of cultural assimilation experienced by Finland and Ireland, obviously excepting the unitary foreign overlord. If anything though, there was even more German settlement in Poland than in either Bohemia or the aforementioned examples. IIRC, Poland at that time was no longer functioning at a kingdom level. Instead various duchy-level entities (I think duchies) independently ruled the region. They experienced and even promoted German immigration and were looking increasingly to the west and HRE as an authority.
As such it is quite probable that straight line continuation would have seen Poland incorporated into the Holy Roman Empire and gradually Germanized. In fact Silesia experienced just that. At this time the Baltic coast was pagan-being-overrun-with-crusaders, and the rest of "Poland" was divided between Greater Poland and Silesia in the west, larger Masovia and Lesser Poland in the east, and the city-state of Krakow. Poland as a kingdom likely would not have survived the loss of a second, certainly not a third. At that stage the eastern pair are likely to be subsumed for practical and religious reasons - they're too small to operate independently in the long haul, but too catholic to merge with the patchwork of petty Russian states as they might otherwise. German settlement would have continued, and the nobility would speak only French and Latin when they weren't speaking German. By the modern era, Polish would be a minority tongue.
Of course, there are reasons enough why this didn't happen. Most visibly, the Mongols arrived to wreak havoc precisely where eastward migration had been directed. Superficially this last ought to have accelerated the process - Poland was devastated, but Germany left virtually untouched. In practice though, the German population of Poland was disproportionately affected, immigration may have slowed (it seems likely, but I can't find a source), and, decisively, the HRE utterly failed to capitalize on the situation. Efforts at imperial centralization had failed, an emperor drowned on crusade, emperors and popes squandered their strength against each other, and so on ad infinitum. The opportunity afforded by the Mongol invasion could have accelerated Germanization and made it permanent - Silesia and the successes of the Teutonic Order make that clear - but it would have taken some level of effort to make it so. In Germany there was no unitary body to make that attempt at the time in question.
Hungary is a different matter, but could have been politically absorbed in the right circumstances as well. Cultural and linguistic absorption is a different matter.
So, yes. It is possible. With Poland it even took rather poor luck and timing to avoid that result.
I recommend Faeelin's Prince of Peace as a fair example of how to prepare this situation. Though be warned that Hungary remains independent by the timeline's end.
As such it is quite probable that straight line continuation would have seen Poland incorporated into the Holy Roman Empire and gradually Germanized. In fact Silesia experienced just that. At this time the Baltic coast was pagan-being-overrun-with-crusaders, and the rest of "Poland" was divided between Greater Poland and Silesia in the west, larger Masovia and Lesser Poland in the east, and the city-state of Krakow. Poland as a kingdom likely would not have survived the loss of a second, certainly not a third. At that stage the eastern pair are likely to be subsumed for practical and religious reasons - they're too small to operate independently in the long haul, but too catholic to merge with the patchwork of petty Russian states as they might otherwise. German settlement would have continued, and the nobility would speak only French and Latin when they weren't speaking German. By the modern era, Polish would be a minority tongue.
Of course, there are reasons enough why this didn't happen. Most visibly, the Mongols arrived to wreak havoc precisely where eastward migration had been directed. Superficially this last ought to have accelerated the process - Poland was devastated, but Germany left virtually untouched. In practice though, the German population of Poland was disproportionately affected, immigration may have slowed (it seems likely, but I can't find a source), and, decisively, the HRE utterly failed to capitalize on the situation. Efforts at imperial centralization had failed, an emperor drowned on crusade, emperors and popes squandered their strength against each other, and so on ad infinitum. The opportunity afforded by the Mongol invasion could have accelerated Germanization and made it permanent - Silesia and the successes of the Teutonic Order make that clear - but it would have taken some level of effort to make it so. In Germany there was no unitary body to make that attempt at the time in question.
Hungary is a different matter, but could have been politically absorbed in the right circumstances as well. Cultural and linguistic absorption is a different matter.
So, yes. It is possible. With Poland it even took rather poor luck and timing to avoid that result.
I recommend Faeelin's Prince of Peace as a fair example of how to prepare this situation. Though be warned that Hungary remains independent by the timeline's end.
I think a "ZapadoSlavia" entity is a good addition to HRE asside from having Occitan and French speakers to the West because Poland and Bohemia will create a united Slavic Bloc in the HRE.
Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy
Banned
Slavic solidarity was non-existent, Poland and Bohemia are more likely to clash over Silesia and foreign relations in this time and place were dominated by dynastic concerns.
Any ideas about Halych-Volhynia? Anyone?
It's the opposite I think. Should Poland avoid fragmentation period after Boleslaw the Wrymouth, it would most likely hold on Silesia and not invite Teutonic Order to Prussia. Mongol devastation and depopulation actually accelerated German migration and in effect, Germanization, not the other way around. Not to mention that Silesian Henries would most likely hold power over most of Poland without Mongols. I think that the main problem is that while technically kingdom of Poland didn't exist during that period, title itself existed, and sooner or later someone would claim it as OTL. Of course absorption into HRE is possible, with Wladyslaw Elbow high failing against Bohemia/Teutonic Order/Brandenburg, for example. Would it result in almost complete Germanization similar to situation in Ireland? Highly doubtful, since even less numerous Czechs retained their language. Plus in many areas settling Germans were actually Polonised. Polish language would certainly evolve differently, but would not disappear.
I think it might most likely turn Catholic, it was on that path before the mongols attacked Eastern Europe.
Eurofed
Banned
This was quite feasible at some degree. The most likely and "natural" way to do so would require a successful centralization of the HRE under the Ottonians or Staufen (which by the way, would all but surely ensure the cultural assimilation of Bohemia as well), and for Poland, a deeper, longer-lasting fragmentation of the Polish kingdom in duchies.
As it concerns Poland, it would imply a greater success of the cultural and political assimilation process that happened IOTL for Silesia. Basically speaking, during the divided Poland period, at least the duchy of Greater Poland, quite likely the duchy of Krakow as well, would be incorporated in the centralized HRE and culturally assimilated the way it happened for the duchy of Silesia. Quite possibly, a duchy of Masovia would eventually follow their path in these conditions. Anyway it is dubious Masovia alone would be enough to ensure the survival of a Polish kingdom/nation-state down the line; it might or might not happen if Lesser Poland remains independent as well; but without Silesia and Greater Poland, a surviving Poland would be at best much lessened, and its geopolitical balance pushed east and south.
As it concerns Hungary-Croatia, its political assimilation by a centralized HRE (by dynastic means or vassallization) would be quite feasible and perhaps even likely, unless it becomes a buffer state between the HRE and whatever polity fills the Byzantine/Ottoman geopolitical niche. The likelihood of its cultural assimilation is a bit more dubious than for (western) Poland and Bohemia, although by no means unfeasible. Even in the much less favorable OTL conditions, a sizable German community developed in Transylvania, and a sizable Italian community in Dalmatia; the same kind of thing, to a greater degree, would happen here.
IMO, assimilation of Bohemia, Greater Poland, and Silesia would happen "naturally" anyway as a high-probability butterfly of a centralized HRE. Masovia would require a more serious fragmentation of Poland, some conscious effort from the HRE, or the right butterflies. Lesser Poland is a halfway case. Hungary-Croatia would require a serious degree of conscious effort from the HRE, its not being too distracted elsewhere (e.g. against France), and/or the right butterflies.
As it concerns Poland, it would imply a greater success of the cultural and political assimilation process that happened IOTL for Silesia. Basically speaking, during the divided Poland period, at least the duchy of Greater Poland, quite likely the duchy of Krakow as well, would be incorporated in the centralized HRE and culturally assimilated the way it happened for the duchy of Silesia. Quite possibly, a duchy of Masovia would eventually follow their path in these conditions. Anyway it is dubious Masovia alone would be enough to ensure the survival of a Polish kingdom/nation-state down the line; it might or might not happen if Lesser Poland remains independent as well; but without Silesia and Greater Poland, a surviving Poland would be at best much lessened, and its geopolitical balance pushed east and south.
As it concerns Hungary-Croatia, its political assimilation by a centralized HRE (by dynastic means or vassallization) would be quite feasible and perhaps even likely, unless it becomes a buffer state between the HRE and whatever polity fills the Byzantine/Ottoman geopolitical niche. The likelihood of its cultural assimilation is a bit more dubious than for (western) Poland and Bohemia, although by no means unfeasible. Even in the much less favorable OTL conditions, a sizable German community developed in Transylvania, and a sizable Italian community in Dalmatia; the same kind of thing, to a greater degree, would happen here.
IMO, assimilation of Bohemia, Greater Poland, and Silesia would happen "naturally" anyway as a high-probability butterfly of a centralized HRE. Masovia would require a more serious fragmentation of Poland, some conscious effort from the HRE, or the right butterflies. Lesser Poland is a halfway case. Hungary-Croatia would require a serious degree of conscious effort from the HRE, its not being too distracted elsewhere (e.g. against France), and/or the right butterflies.
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Why exactly is Poland being absorbed "natural"?
I mean yes, there was German settlement there, but that's not the same as the duchies being drawn into subordination to the Emperor.
I certainly think it's possible for a HRE which is focused on eastern expansion, in the right conditions - but it's not going to happen just because German culture is so awesome the Poles just want to be part of the HRE so as to get more of it.
I mean yes, there was German settlement there, but that's not the same as the duchies being drawn into subordination to the Emperor.
I certainly think it's possible for a HRE which is focused on eastern expansion, in the right conditions - but it's not going to happen just because German culture is so awesome the Poles just want to be part of the HRE so as to get more of it.
Eurofed
Banned
If you ask my opinion, with a stronger (more centralized) HRE and/or weaker (more fragmented) Poland than OTL, the highest probability outcome ("natural" in this sense) is for a bigger chunk of Poland to get culturally and politically assimilated by the Empire, by the same parallel processes that happened IOTL, only enhanced in these circumstances.
As it concerns Bohemia, Silesia, and Greater Poland, IMO butterflies would have to really go out of their way to prevent their complete absorption in the HRE, and snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, so to speak. It would otherwise happen without need of any serious focus on eastern expansion by the Emperors ("natural" in this sense, too). Masovia would require a somewhat more serious purposeful effort by the Empire, or the right dynastic/diplomatic/military butterflies. Lesser Poland is a halfway case, it might go both ways, depending on butterflies.
Hungary and Croatia are like eastern Poland, but only rather more so. Their political assimilation is feasible, but it requires a rather serious Imperial focus on eastern expansion, and/or the right dynastic/diplomatic/military butterflies, which also need to involve whomever rules in Constantinople acting in the right way.
It is also most likely that those areas would get kinda more culturally assimilated than OTL, quite possibly in a patchwork way, as circumstances make the same processes that affected Transylvania and Dalmatia more successful.
It's not (mostly) an issue of Imperial culture being so awesome, rather of reciprocal strength. However, I may point out that a centralized HRE would inevitably be one of the most powerful and wealthy European states, and its prestige would be proportionally bigger. As things typically went in premodern European powers, power, wealth, and prestige would eventually translate into a sizable degree of cultural supremacy, as scholars and artists flock to the Imperial court, the Emperors and magnates give them patronage, and so on.
While I agree that a weaker/more divided Poland in a situation where the HRE is stronger than OTL might be naturally drawn towards the HRE, I do not think simply having a stronger HRE would do it - especially with the fact Imperial attention is going to be on Italy and Germany for at least as long as it took OTL Poland to reunite simply for the empire's own sake - making sure that the Imperial house is in order is more important than what the Poles do or don't do, and a stronger Empire doesn't increase German migration abroad. Now obviously the 15th century will be different, but if Poland stays divided longer than OTL, that's different than if the Empire simply is stronger than OTL.
Bohemia is absorbed into the empire in every sense that matters already, Silesia and Greater Poland are the start.
Why so? Certainly German culture will have influence outside its borders, but that's looking at the long term effects of how Nuremburg (the closest thing to an Imperial capital - we can pick some other city but it's easiest to use that for the sake of this discussion) is a rival to Paris than how a united Empire is inevitably enticiing to nonGermans.
And yet while French fashions and styles were enormously influential, the areas outside medieval France that turned French or even friendly to France is fairly limited. To use the OTL example of this process.
Don't get me wrong here, I think Poland in a stronger Empire scenario is entirely possible - just that you seem to be thinking that the natural process is the same as your preferred scenario, where it would would take active thwarting of destiny to keep Poland out of the HRE.