Could the HRE have absorbed Hungary and Poland?

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy, Apr 23, 2012.

  1. Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy Banned

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    I'm thinking of something similar to what happened to Bohemia. Obviously it would be helped if Hungary and Poland were vassalized before they had a chance to expand their territory too much.
     
  2. Elfwine Byzantophilic Brony

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    In a word: No.

    A united HRE could try - but that requires a challenging set of obstacles.

    Poland is easier, but Hungary might be a real problem, and both is a mouthful.

    Especially if the HRE has anything to worry about from France or elsewhere (quite likely), or other ambitions.
     
  3. Cecil Well-Known Member

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    Well its going to be hard. First you need some sort of centralized HRE and that in itself is going to be a difficult proposition. And you cant do it too late, I´d say preferbly before they grow in size and you need several hundred years to absorb them before the age of nationalism.

    Also I think we need some sort of seriously damaging war or plague that allows for settlers from germany to form a serious influx of people. I´m thinking the 30 years war on scale of damage. Problem is there really anything worth fighting over that badly out east. Also I dont know if the "locusts of war" could be that effective in the early time period you need. I suppose the closest comparison we have are the companies in France 1350-56 but I dont know if thats enough. A seriously damaging plague would probably not stay local thus defeating the purpose since it´ll empty a lot of homesteads in the HRE too.

    Though I guess some sort of early super centralized HRE could add them through conquests or marriage but I dont think thats possible in the era we are talking about and neither would it be "the HRE" in any case.
     
  4. Simon Thread Killer Extraordinaire

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    Outside of Europa Universalis III probably not. ;)
     
  5. Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy Banned

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    Why in the world are you guys hung up on centralization? The HRE was experiencing the opposite process when Bohemia was absorbed. It's got nothing to do with what I'm asking.
     
  6. Grouchio Well-Known Member

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    Or Medieval 2 Total War and it's many mods. :rolleyes:
     
  7. TyranicusMaximus Irrational Statist

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    I was under the (mistaken?) impression that the HRE 'created' the Kingdom of Bohemia. Hungary and Poland were independent kingdoms from the start.
     
  8. Marko Well-Known Member

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    As long as Hungary doesn't unite with Croatia it will have much closer relations with HRE and is more likely to be absorbed.
     
  9. MarshalBraginsky Banned

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    So where would Croatia go if it isn't united with Hungary? I could hardly see it as an independent state and a buffer zone in the same level as the Kingdom of Bosnia.
     
  10. Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy Banned

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    It was absorbed while a duchy and one of its dukes took advantage of a civil war in the HRE to get himself the title of king some 200 years later.
     
  11. Fredrick II Barbarossa Holy Roman Emperor

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    Maybe Sigismund of Luxembourgh manages to somehow secure the imperial throne for his dynasty. Thoughts?
     
  12. thrashing_mad Well-Known Member

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    Well, other Polish duchies during period of feudal fragmentation might gravitate towards HRE just like Silesian Piasts did in 13th-14th centuries. Maybe if Henry the Pious living longer could keep title of high duke of Poland, and pass it to his descendants - eventually leading to kingdom of Poland within HRE (with Silesia, without Masovia).
     
  13. Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy Banned

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    I don't see why it couldn't work as a buffer. Or it could be conquered by Byzantium or Bulgaria or whatever regional power the Serbs end up forming.
     
  14. Marko Well-Known Member

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    Croatia could stay independent considering the Papal support that Bosnia never had. Another posibility is closer relations with Naples in a sort of anti Venice/Byzanite aliance. Even ending under the Byzantine vassalage like her other southern slavic neighbours.

    Unlike Bosnia that was only a player on the big scene during Tvrtko (2nd half of the 14th century) Croatia prior to the unification with Hungary was a serious player in the power strugles for control of the Adriatic and the Balkans. Should unification with Hungary be butterflied for any reason there is little evidence such a position would change. On the other hand Venice would never rise to its position and the south slavic world would have been much more culturaly and arhitecturaly richer.
     
  15. kasumigenx Well-Known Member

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    I think for Poland, a Silesian united Poland could be an ally or an electorate of HRE...but I think the easiest route would be a ZapadoSlavia like state, which is what the Przemyslids were trying to establish in the late 13th century.


    For Hungary, I think it might need to lose Transylvania and it's other Orthodox provinces.
     
  16. MarshalBraginsky Banned

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    Croatia as a Byzantine vassal? Could it also end up being absorbed by Byzantium?
     
  17. Elfwine Byzantophilic Brony

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    Potentially, although how well the Byzantines can hold on to it is a good question.

    Not to mention why they'd want it as part of the empire instead of a vassal, although this is easy enough to answer, it does need an answer other than "because".

    On the issue of centralization and the HRE: Because a noncentralized HRE isn't going to be able to hold on to Poland or Hungary in any meaningful sense, that's why.
     
  18. Monty Burns Well-Known Member

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    Now considering Hungary, we should remember that for quite a long time the Emperor was in personal union king of Hungary. The fact that he didn't try to get Hungary within the HRE even though it might have been possible is the clue. You could also have a northern German prince rule Poland and become Emperor, still he wouldn't want to unite his domains.
     
  19. Marko Well-Known Member

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    I just remembered something that might be of importance the position of Kingship to rulers of Bohemia and Poland was given by the HRE Emperor. So just as Bohemia ended as part of HRE Poland might also. On the other hand Hungary was given Kingship by the Pope. Change history so that it is also given by the HRE and that might happen.
     
  20. Elfwine Byzantophilic Brony

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    Bohemia was part of the HRE already when it was made a kingdom, though.

    Who gives the crown acknowledging the state as a kingdom isn't nearly as important as if the HRE can exercise any meaningful authority over the new kingdoms.