Could the America's have been settled by the Europeans in the middle-ages?
- Thread starter Malone
- Start date
In the Middle Ages the cargo capacity of sailing ships was pretty limited. The only goods that would be worthwhile transporting back from North America to Europe would be items with high value for low volume - gold, silver, walrus ivory, etc. Samples of grains/seeds sure. Timber, actual grain (even if a market) and so forth are simply too bulky for sufficient quantities to be transported. Given the lack of state structures at this time, even if a wealthy nobleman finances an initial settlement, the return will be too small and too long term to continue it.
I still say the most likely scenario is colonization by refugees (probably religious) or an initial attempt by someone wealthy and in either case contact is lost either deliberately or due to lack of finances and the settlers then develop independently for some time, perhaps even the records of a planned settlement are lost - a refugee settlement may never have had records in Europe. FWIW while many places in Europe were open to immigrants this openness did not exist for Jews and heretics. In the former case while they might be invited in, in relatively short order things would become nasty. In the latter case, the catholic Church authorities were more opposed to "Christians" who espoused a different theology than they were to Jews.
I still say the most likely scenario is colonization by refugees (probably religious) or an initial attempt by someone wealthy and in either case contact is lost either deliberately or due to lack of finances and the settlers then develop independently for some time, perhaps even the records of a planned settlement are lost - a refugee settlement may never have had records in Europe. FWIW while many places in Europe were open to immigrants this openness did not exist for Jews and heretics. In the former case while they might be invited in, in relatively short order things would become nasty. In the latter case, the catholic Church authorities were more opposed to "Christians" who espoused a different theology than they were to Jews.
Burton K Wheeler
Moderator
The push already existed. It was the Little Ice Age. Norway went from being a political peer of Sweden and Denmark to a backwater because climate change destroyed its agricultural productivity.
The problem with Vinland was it was a backwater colony of a backwater colony (Greenland) of a struggling colony (Iceland) of Norway, not a Norwegian settlement in the New World. It was a timber camp for Greenlanders that Greenland was too poor and remote to sustain. There wasn't really much incentive for Norwegians to settle there even if they'd been aware of it, since it was so far from any trade route. If some Norwegian exile wants to settle well away from his enemies, Russia is probably more appealing than Vinland. Since AH is a literary exercise, you can imagine an Erik the Red type with strong ties to Norway/the British Isles being driven out of Iceland and leapfrogging the existing Greenland settlement, then inviting his friends along, but that's a bit of a stretch.
Once you've stretched to imagine this established Vinland colony with enough people to repel Indian raids (a thousand or so would be sufficient) and trade ties through Greenland and Iceland to Norway (another stretch in and of itself), it becomes appealing down the line in the medieval era as Norway gets overpopulated.
In an old TL I wrote, Vinland became a colony for exiled pagan Norse, who hybridized extensively with Indian culture and were then pushed into the interior of the continent when Norwegian Christians took it over a few centuries later.
The problem with Vinland was it was a backwater colony of a backwater colony (Greenland) of a struggling colony (Iceland) of Norway, not a Norwegian settlement in the New World. It was a timber camp for Greenlanders that Greenland was too poor and remote to sustain. There wasn't really much incentive for Norwegians to settle there even if they'd been aware of it, since it was so far from any trade route. If some Norwegian exile wants to settle well away from his enemies, Russia is probably more appealing than Vinland. Since AH is a literary exercise, you can imagine an Erik the Red type with strong ties to Norway/the British Isles being driven out of Iceland and leapfrogging the existing Greenland settlement, then inviting his friends along, but that's a bit of a stretch.
Once you've stretched to imagine this established Vinland colony with enough people to repel Indian raids (a thousand or so would be sufficient) and trade ties through Greenland and Iceland to Norway (another stretch in and of itself), it becomes appealing down the line in the medieval era as Norway gets overpopulated.
In an old TL I wrote, Vinland became a colony for exiled pagan Norse, who hybridized extensively with Indian culture and were then pushed into the interior of the continent when Norwegian Christians took it over a few centuries later.
This is what I have been saying - early on you are going to need something really valuable for the trip to be worthwhile. As the naval tech marches on, less valuable cargoes would do.
The most likely initial colonizers would probably be Icelandic Norsemen. There is not really much of a change needed for a successful colony in Newfoundland. Iceland was overpopulated, that should generate a steady stream of settlers. And the Norse christianized at this time, there must be some some pagans that would rather emigrate. Later on, I could see some people of various persecuted groups packing their packs and going if there is a safe settlement to go to. For example, William's wacky English adventure in the 11th century would likely make at least some people to consider GTFOing.
EDIT
I don't think Beothuk tribes had more than twenty or so stone age warriors, and if you can repel an occassional attack by that you should be good to go. A thousand people sounds a bit much for that.
The most likely initial colonizers would probably be Icelandic Norsemen. There is not really much of a change needed for a successful colony in Newfoundland. Iceland was overpopulated, that should generate a steady stream of settlers. And the Norse christianized at this time, there must be some some pagans that would rather emigrate. Later on, I could see some people of various persecuted groups packing their packs and going if there is a safe settlement to go to. For example, William's wacky English adventure in the 11th century would likely make at least some people to consider GTFOing.
EDIT
I don't think Beothuk tribes had more than twenty or so stone age warriors, and if you can repel an occassional attack by that you should be good to go. A thousand people sounds a bit much for that.
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Burton K Wheeler
Moderator
Rule of thumb is that 10% of a population will be fighting men. A thousand is probably a bit high, Vinland could be able to defend itself with 200-300 people. I don't know enough about early medieval Scandinavian village economics to tell you what a good number would be to have a thriving local economy, but yes, a few hundred is probably adequate.
There is also the fact that initial settlers would be disproportionally young men. And Norse homesteaders were pretty self sufficient, so they would probably make do.
If there is settlement going that can easily expand, Iceland would provide settlers - Greenland grew to a few thousand very quickly, and this is probably more a case of Greenland not being able to house more rather than Iceland not being able to provide settlers.
If there is settlement going that can easily expand, Iceland would provide settlers - Greenland grew to a few thousand very quickly, and this is probably more a case of Greenland not being able to house more rather than Iceland not being able to provide settlers.
Yup. And landing in N.A. to dry it (you need dry land to be able to properly dry and store large amounts of cod)...
Also, if you want to Norse to have a better chance of colonizing N.A. you need to delay the Christianization of Greenland. Christians were (in this area and period), seemingly more tied to their lands and less able to "pack up and leave", then their pagan forefathers. Delay official christianization of greenland by fifty or so years, and that might be enough to get a permanent colony or two in N.A.
Pagan or Christian, Greenland does not have the population to set up a serious colony in North America.
Ye, the push did exist.
But it was from Norway. It was not to America. I mean there were a lot of places in Europe where people who were able to handle a sword or/and a plow might find a place to settle.
Without a necessity to cross the Atlantic ocean.
I mean the real push is when you have nowhere to go but America.
I believe it was more a question of resources. Neither Iceland nor Greenland had timber that could be used for shipbuilding. And other rather mundane stuff were imports. The poor people who would want to colonize for land could not afford to, and the ones who could, well, they were rich Icelanders, why would they want to?
Burton K Wheeler
Moderator
Yeah, I may not have articulated this well. There are lots of places to go besides America, even if there was an America-Norway link instead of a America-Greenland-Iceland-Norway chain.
As a factoid to remember, the ships and navigational knowledge that allowed direct Atlantic crossing only happened in 15th century. So if the Spanish taxed Atlantic fishing at the end of the century, it had to be a relatively new phenomenon.
This cuts down on settling possibilities - without some POD any settlers before mid 15th almost certainly need to use Norse crossing route.
This cuts down on settling possibilities - without some POD any settlers before mid 15th almost certainly need to use Norse crossing route.
John Fredrick Parker
Donor
If Vinland proved anything, it was that maritime tech was absolutely not the deciding factor in the dawn of maritime globalization (Age of Exploration, Columbian Exchange, etc); as with the Industrial Revolution, it is economic demand that pushes technology, not the other way around.
And as I see it presently, the main prerequisite for maritime globalization is continental globalization -- that is, you need one part of the world to already have indirect access to goods on the other side of the world, so that they may develop a taste and demand for them, so that there is profit incentive to invest in exploration, and later colonization. Now seeing that continental globalization has waxed and waned for centuries prior to the 15th century, it may well be possible for American colonies to take earlier, but the changes would have to be pretty big, to the Afroeurasian economy as a whole.
And as I see it presently, the main prerequisite for maritime globalization is continental globalization -- that is, you need one part of the world to already have indirect access to goods on the other side of the world, so that they may develop a taste and demand for them, so that there is profit incentive to invest in exploration, and later colonization. Now seeing that continental globalization has waxed and waned for centuries prior to the 15th century, it may well be possible for American colonies to take earlier, but the changes would have to be pretty big, to the Afroeurasian economy as a whole.
No potatoes, unless or until the Euro settlement, or anyway European influenced settlement, grows to be so large and extensive it begins trading all the way down to the Andes. I could be mistaken but I don't think potatoes had spread far out of their Andean development site when Pizzaro et al showed up, and it was via Spanish-controlled or influenced trade that it spread to the world at large.
Stuff that a North American Atlantic coast colony of modest size might export to Europe, creating a demand for more, includes maize to be sure (but I don't think it would be a big hit in Europe, as I understand it it is considered animal fodder there to this day OTL--well, outside Italy with its polenta anyhow!) but also tobacco, God help us. A certain recent Vinland TL made what I believe is the unique, novel suggestion that maple syrup and its derivatives might be a big hit. (Another author appropriated the idea right away). This led me to wonder if anyone ever made any kind of fermented alcoholic drink out of maple sugar--it seems darn near certain to me someone in the maple region among the various waves of Europeans and Euro-influenced Natives and Metis would try it, yet no one seems to ever mention it or give it a name. This led me in turn to mix some maple syrup with water and a bit of vodka to get some idea what it might be like--it isn't great but not that bad; of course fermented syrup water (or weakly rendered maple sap) would presumably be less sweet since the sugar is what would feed the yeast. Does anyone know of maple beer, or mead, or "wine," or some kind of harder booze?
I wonder how far north peppers were cultivated on the Atlantic coast; they and perhaps tomatoes might make it into a fairly extensive Euro trade zone American coastal and European market.
In fact, could I but recall which TL it was whose author introduced the maple idea, I suggested/wondered if a fair number of Native foods or foods derived from American crops and storage/preparation methods might not form the basis of a much healthier diet for seafarers, one enabling crews with ships rather inferior to OTL 15th century Portuguese types to nevertheless make long voyages because their food supply is better than say hardtack.
And an obsession of mine re contact between Old and New worlds remains--chocolate! If the European influenced zone (not necessarily mostly populated by pure blood European descendents--intermarriage with Native people might spread European cultural influence far more widely) is large enough and trades far enough, to tap into Central American markets, chocolate in various forms might turn up in European markets, and I believe once there, a craze for it would ensue. Especially if it goes by way of New England or points north and gets presented in a sweet form sweetened by maple!
But this involves very long trade chains and such chains might also be long enough to deliver potatoes onto the European markets too.
Stuff that a North American Atlantic coast colony of modest size might export to Europe, creating a demand for more, includes maize to be sure (but I don't think it would be a big hit in Europe, as I understand it it is considered animal fodder there to this day OTL--well, outside Italy with its polenta anyhow!) but also tobacco, God help us. A certain recent Vinland TL made what I believe is the unique, novel suggestion that maple syrup and its derivatives might be a big hit. (Another author appropriated the idea right away). This led me to wonder if anyone ever made any kind of fermented alcoholic drink out of maple sugar--it seems darn near certain to me someone in the maple region among the various waves of Europeans and Euro-influenced Natives and Metis would try it, yet no one seems to ever mention it or give it a name. This led me in turn to mix some maple syrup with water and a bit of vodka to get some idea what it might be like--it isn't great but not that bad; of course fermented syrup water (or weakly rendered maple sap) would presumably be less sweet since the sugar is what would feed the yeast. Does anyone know of maple beer, or mead, or "wine," or some kind of harder booze?
I wonder how far north peppers were cultivated on the Atlantic coast; they and perhaps tomatoes might make it into a fairly extensive Euro trade zone American coastal and European market.
In fact, could I but recall which TL it was whose author introduced the maple idea, I suggested/wondered if a fair number of Native foods or foods derived from American crops and storage/preparation methods might not form the basis of a much healthier diet for seafarers, one enabling crews with ships rather inferior to OTL 15th century Portuguese types to nevertheless make long voyages because their food supply is better than say hardtack.
And an obsession of mine re contact between Old and New worlds remains--chocolate! If the European influenced zone (not necessarily mostly populated by pure blood European descendents--intermarriage with Native people might spread European cultural influence far more widely) is large enough and trades far enough, to tap into Central American markets, chocolate in various forms might turn up in European markets, and I believe once there, a craze for it would ensue. Especially if it goes by way of New England or points north and gets presented in a sweet form sweetened by maple!
But this involves very long trade chains and such chains might also be long enough to deliver potatoes onto the European markets too.
Thing is, that Christianization was a near run thing. Kill off Olaf Tryggvason a year or two earlier. Have the Christian party to the Althing of 999 treated as outlaws and killed (many, including the leaders were outlaws) rather than having the dispute mediated and the Christianization of Iceland and possibly Norway goes south, and Norse Paganism could be more entrenched in reaction in the short term.
Longer term, Iceland is probably facing civil war or invasion. That seems to be the perfect thing to create a large enough wave to establish a sizeable enough colony.
Tobacco's definitely a major potential export product. And it's fortunate that the way people used tobacco before the late 19th century was far less dangerous than from then onwards, since it seems like inhalation of tobacco (and thus the risk of lung cancers, heart disease, etc.) was very rare.
For maple products, I heard it stated by a historian on the Iroquois "If you have a bucket of maple syrup, why would you let it rot?" Practically, it seems like making mead from maple syrup has different requirements than normal mead from honey, because maple syrup has less nutrients than honey.
I know in certain stores in New Hampshire (probably other parts of New England too), you can get what seems to be maple mead--I'm not sure if it's mixed with honey (or vodka or something), but it tastes rather thin exactly as I'd imagine something made from maple syrup might taste, and far different from normal mead. There's several recipes online for "mead" made exclusively from maple syrup.
Really, you have the issue that little north of Mesoamerica is of interest to Europeans, though Mesoamerica has peppers, chocolate, gold/silver, etc.