Could the 1848 Revolutions be sucsessful?

True, but in the German pre-revolutionary Vormãrz, there were both catholic and Protestant reform movements, too (Deutschkatholiken and Lichtfreunde). They"d be pillars of the Republic, too.

Education can be massively divisive, of course. But there is a small chance that Democrats focus on FREE education over secular one.


And even that army of the first French Republic - about as "politicised and "republican" as you are likely to get - had within seven years tossed such principles into the trash, and given its loyalty to a Corsican general who proceeded to make a Concordat with Rome, and whose law code was so conservative that even the restored Bourbons were ok with it.

Any reason why things should be any different TTL?
 
And even that army of the first French Republic - about as "politicised and "republican" as you are likely to get - had within seven years tossed such principles into the trash, and given its loyalty to a Corsican general who proceeded to make a Concordat with Rome, and whose law code was so conservative that even the restored Bourbons were ok with it.

Any reason why things should be any different TTL?
I don't exactly get your point. Conservative backlashes are always going to happen, just like workers' riots. A Republican government would face Opposition from left and right, of course. And it would lean this and that way, depending on social circumstances, foreign relations, electoral trends etc.
 
I don't exactly get your point. Conservative backlashes are always going to happen, just like workers' riots. A Republican government would face Opposition from left and right, of course. And it would lean this and that way, depending on social circumstances, foreign relations, electoral trends etc.

I was concurring with your last post.
 

Thomas1195

Banned
Education can be massively divisive, of course. But there is a small chance that Democrats focus on FREE education over secular one.
The problem was that most if not all of the revolutionaries support free education. The main issue would be secularization.

I don't exactly get your point. Conservative backlashes are always going to happen, just like workers' riots. A Republican government would face Opposition from left and right, of course. And it would lean this and that way, depending on social circumstances, foreign relations, electoral trends etc.
This was true with France IOTL, because of the June Day as well as the unrealistic policy of national workshops, which involved taxing farmers, who accounted for 70% of total population. Better policies would help win over the farmer and deprive the Conservatives of their main powerbase.

However, IOTL, the Conservative Right was essentially reduced to a fringe during the Third Republic from 1880 until 1936, which was the factor that turned the Republican Moderate/ Democratic Republican Alliance into a right-wing party, because the traditional Right had declined. At that time, population structure had changed in favour of the Republicans. And note that the French managed to imposed laicism without triggering a Zentrum like in Germany, despite being a Catholic majority country. This would be the case for any British Republic due to Britain's demographic structure (British conservatives were never strong in anti-Corn Law, pro-Free Trade urban areas during the 1840s-1850s).

For the left, the moderate-left Radicals eventually turned out to be just a left liberal party, but the Socialists and Communist far-left would be a problem. But unlike the Right, the majority of the Left never aimed to overthrow the Republic, at least in the 19th century.
 
The problem was that most if not all of the revolutionaries support free education. The main issue would be secularization..

Would it matter much what the "revolutionaries" thought?

Once the revolution had run its course, would the original firebrands have any more role to play than the likes of Samuel Adams, Patrick Henry or Thomas Paine had at the Constitutional Convention of 1787?
 
I mean all liberals, radicals and socialists support free education. So the question would be secularization in education.
How they'll implement that is the question, though. Financing it, getting educated teachers... relying partly on the churches is often a pragmatic choice, too. Excluding it is a tough road.

Guess it depends on how the Pope behaves towards the alt-Italian revolution, too.
 
I saw a few misconception about the Revolution in Austria (and especially Hungary).

Austria would've been victorious even without Russian help thanks to Radetzky defeating the Italians. In hindsight, begging asking the Russians for help was one of the worst decisions of the time. It did, however, shorten the war by a few months and allowed the Austrians to keep troops in Italy and maintain their influence there. Which, again, isn't much in hindsight...

I also don't see how the Hungarian Diet could've recalled the Hungarian regiments from Italy. Not in time, at least. First, they were loyal to Radetzky and the very small number of defections (including Italian troops in the Imperial army) shows that. Second, remember that hostilities only started between Austria and Hungary in the winter of 48-49. Before that, the fights were between the Hungarian Diet's forces and Ban Jelačić's forces, neither under Vienna's orders. In fact, Vienna repeatedly tried to settle the conflict, but Jelačić got cocky after his initial victories and the Hungarians were becoming more radical as Minister-President Batthyány became weaker. It also didn't help that Austrian officers fought on both sides, often received confusing orders, and all believed to be loyal to the Emperor/King.

In my opinion, the only way to make 1848 succeed in Austria is to keep it peaceful. This can be succeeded by Count von Lamberg not getting murdered in Pest. Or, better yet, him not getting unconstitutionally appointed in the first place. His murder was arguably what led to Vienna fully turning on the Hungarians. I believe that if Vienna doesn't intervene, the Hungarians eventually defeat Jelačić and push him back to Croatia, but are unable to retake it. So, Vienna then brokers a peace between Pest-Buda and Zagreb. The results depend on when Vienna can convince Jelačić to stop messing around. If he realises early that he can't take Pest, then Croatian autonomy should be acceptable to the Diet. If not, well, it'll be complicated. Likely an 1869 Croat-Hungarian settlement-like deal.

Or, the Liberals in Vienna are more succesful and keep the Kamarilla from retaking power. This will likely lead to some awkward legal issues with a constitution for Hungary and another for the rest of the Empire, but that's almost the 1867 agreement anyways. I assume some kind of agreement over foreign and military affairs would be acceptable for the Hungarians since the April Laws are really short-sighted over them. As long as the April Laws are maintained (and this is seriously important!), there should be peace between Vienna and Budapest.

Anyways, the consequences of a succesful 1848 in Hungary are pretty significant, especially if things don't devolve into the confusing mess of 1849. Basically, the boom Hungary went through after 1867 begins in 1848 instead. As was thoroughly debated between '41 and '48, the customs barrier between Austria and Hungary is abolished, increasing trade significantly. The Hungarian politicians are also more reform-minded than in '67, so the Laws on Minorities could still be passed by the Diet, making Hungary potentially far more progressive than OTL post-1867.
Then what about a crushing Hungarian victory against Jellacic at Pákozd? Let's say Jellacic himself is captured as well.
 

Thomas1195

Banned
How they'll implement that is the question, though. Financing it, getting educated teachers... relying partly on the churches is often a pragmatic choice, too. Excluding it is a tough road.
I thought that German states already had a quite established state school system.

And regarding secularization, the most important issue is to make religious study non-compulsory.

Then what about a crushing Hungarian victory against Jellacic at Pákozd? Let's say Jellacic himself is captured as well.
Or Schwechat?
 
I thought that German states already had a quite established state school system.
And regarding secularization, the most important issue is to make religious study non-compulsory.
The masses got a different school system from that of the elites. It was free, yes, and it encompassed about eight years of education.
Getting rid of compulsory religious education there could be one point where the revolutionaries could endless and pointless fight among each other and with their enemies.
What many revolutionary leaders called for was free "higher education", which started early and went parallel to the schools for the ordinary folk. There, churches were quite active, but of course they did not have a monopoly.
 
Then what about a crushing Hungarian victory against Jellacic at Pákozd? Let's say Jellacic himself is captured as well.
Then Hungarian rule is restored in Croatia and a new Ban is appointed. The massive confusion ends and war is most-likely completely avoided. I can see something along the lines of post-1849 Hungary happening in a smallet scale in Croatia; civil disobedience and refusing to send their delegates to Pest.
 
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