Could/Should the CSA have Industrialized (Given an ACW victory)?

You might get states the CSA industrialising.
The CSA Federal government would not be allowed to get involved.
The CSA would not able able to industrialise using the methods that the Union did.
Nothing stop state governments doing something in their own states.
A lot depend on what resources the each state has.
Britain industrialised without any help from the state.
Before the industrial revoulation, Britian was dominated by Land lords( not unlike Plantation owners in the south) who own large estates and made their money from renting land to tenant farmers.

GB didn't industrialize when a large part of the country was lying in ruins, was in debt above its head, had runaway inflation and escaped slaves roaming the countryside. Unless the CSA pulls off an absolute miracle and wins before early to mid 1862 that is what shape the CSA in.
 
GB didn't industrialize when a large part of the country was lying in ruins, was in debt above its head, had runaway inflation and escaped slaves roaming the countryside. Unless the CSA pulls off an absolute miracle and wins before early to mid 1862 that is what shape the CSA in.

A lot depends on how the CSA becomes independent and how much damage is done and how much debt it is in.
If they can import industrial goods cheaper that they can make them them selves, they may not need to industrialise.
 
A lot depends on how the CSA becomes independent and how much damage is done and how much debt it is in.
If they can import industrial goods cheaper that they can make them them selves, they may not need to industrialise.

You could already say by mid 1862 at the latest "Stick a fork in it, it is done" about the chances of the CSA being anything more than a minor power. It was ALREADY over its head in debt, had a lot of its property destroyed , was suffering runaway inflation and had escaped slaves roaming the countryside.
 
You could already say by mid 1862 at the latest "Stick a fork in it, it is done" about the chances of the CSA being anything more than a minor power. It was ALREADY over its head in debt, had a lot of its property destroyed , was suffering runaway inflation and had escaped slaves roaming the countryside.

I did not say that as I did not create the thread. The OP did not give any information on how quickly the war was won or how much damage was done or what the debt level was.
 
There are multiple obstacles to Confederate industrialization. To run through some of the chief ones:

1) Lack of any financial infrastructure, no real banking establishment, no organized system for credit and securities, tended to mean that capital was safest tied up in land or slaves, and therefore not available for investment;

2) Lack of coherent internal transportation infrastructure and networks - the South had no central railway trunk, instead there was a patchwork of inefficient short run rails with no standardization, canals, and poor quality roads, all oriented toward delivery to export, this meant significant internal transshipment costs, particularly compared to imports. Not fatal, but a serious cumulative handicap.

3) A constitutional prohibition against infrastructure projects.

4) A relatively small and extremely fragmented domestic market, particularly in comparison to adjacent rivals the US, Britain and France, which placed the domestic industries at a net disadvantage compared to manufactured imports.

5) Serious difficulties penetrating any foreign market, notably America, Europe or Latin America for a number of reasons, ranging from distance, lack of blue water shipping, prior secured market positions for the US and Britain, distaste for slavery, etc.

6) A fairly regressive 'renter/owner' plantation culture that places a premium on land and property ownership and is unlikely to support or embrace entrepreneurialism.

7) Low tariff policies that would have made it difficult for domestic industries to thrive against foreign imports.

8) Massive confederate war debts and deficit policy likely to produce hyperinflations, crashes and speculative bubbles.

9) Inability to access foreign investment capital based on the hostility to slaveocracy.

I would also expect much of existing Confederate industry to collapse at the end of the war. The Union blockade had provided for more protection to Confederate industry than any tariff could have. The Confederate government had needed huge amounts of goods for the war effort. Postwar Confederate industry will face increased competition at the same time that demand for their products will largely disappear. Added to this, the Confederate government will probably seek revenue by selling off surplus equipment, further undercutting Confederate industry.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Should be a sig

The Union blockade had provided for more protection to Confederate industry than any tariff could have.


Should be a sig...

You know, it's funny, I think I made roughly the same point a week ago...

The Lost Cause is strong with many, is it not?

Best,
 
That's actually a good point, why would Britain want the Confederacy to industrialize when it could sell the Confederates manufactured goods? Course, the issue there is that the Union probably would be the main exporter to the CSA.
 
The myth of no government intervnetion

What I do find interesting is the continued believe in the importance of the central government as the planner and instigator of all things. Undoubtedly, much of this belief has to do with the much more recent 'success' of such things as the New Deal, the Great Society, we become accustomed if not dependent on the central government that we consider that it is the only means to accomplish anything.

Actually David what I find interesting is how many people in the U.S. have bought this "everything was honky Dorey before government came along" attitude. Which is totally untrue and fabricated by the conservative and business interests in the last 30 years. The fact is that directly or indirectly the government has played a large part in business especially since the industrial revolution. Here are some examples.

Indirect involvement:Roads are a great example of indirect government involvement in business. They are not built specifically for companies yet industry cannot exist without them. Try getting your raw materials to your factory or your goods to market or your workers to your place of employment without roads.

Schools are another great example. Try running even the simplest business today without workers who can read, write or do simple math.

Direct Involvement: The truth is that government has been directly assisting industry since its inception. Did you know that one of the main causes of the civil war was tariffs put into place on foreign made good by northern industrial states? The new industry in the U.S. couldn't produce things as cheaply as the more advanced industry in Europe. The tariffs were needed to give our industry time to catch up to the point were they could be directly competitive with Europe.

The railroad is another great example. Besides giving the transcontinental railroad companies millions of acres of free land the government also paid them directly to finish the project.

As I have displayed here the government has always directly or indirectly been involved in business.
 
That's actually a good point, why would Britain want the Confederacy to industrialize when it could sell the Confederates manufactured goods? Course, the issue there is that the Union probably would be the main exporter to the CSA.

It could be a case of outsourcing ante litteram.

My idea is that the Confederacy has been helped by the British Empire and has contracted a huge war debt. The CSA has no way to repay it in cash so it "welcomes" british industrialists who set up factories on its territory to build products that are more convient to produce abroad. Since this move gives work to many southerners easing post war reconstruction it is grudgingly welcome by the southerners; what the sourtheners don't see is that Britain is conducting a bit-by-bit [1] economical annexation of the South. In a few decades the CSA is a british dominion in all but name.

[1] Remember the boiling frog tale.
 
It could be a case of outsourcing ante litteram.

My idea is that the Confederacy has been helped by the British Empire and has contracted a huge war debt. The CSA has no way to repay it in cash so it "welcomes" british industrialists who set up factories on its territory to build products that are more convient to produce abroad. Since this move gives work to many southerners easing post war reconstruction it is grudgingly welcome by the southerners; what the sourtheners don't see is that Britain is conducting a bit-by-bit [1] economical annexation of the South. In a few decades the CSA is a british dominion in all but name.

[1] Remember the boiling frog tale.

Except why would the British invest? The problem isn't if the CSA would allow it as it almost certainly would, the problem is very few British investors would be interested! You are talking about a country that is over its head in debt, has runaway to hyper inflation, has dilapidated infrastructure, is right next door to a quickly rising Great Power with a grudge against it and with much of its workforce either running away (slaves) or just leaving (Poor Whites). There are far, far better places to invest than an unstable, backwards banana republic with a Great Power with a grudge right next door.
 
Except why would the British invest? The problem isn't if the CSA would allow it as it almost certainly would, the problem is very few British investors would be interested! You are talking about a country that is over its head in debt, has runaway to hyper inflation, has dilapidated infrastructure, is right next door to a quickly rising Great Power with a grudge against it and with much of its workforce either running away (slaves) or just leaving (Poor Whites). There are far, far better places to invest than an unstable, backwards banana republic with a Great Power with a grudge right next door.

Debt is not a problem for the british, it is the noose that will make the Confederacy dance at London's tune.

Poor whites will work for wages even lower than the already abyssmal ones in England, slaves will be indirectly exploited with an even greater advantage since the british would not have to buy them or feed them.

Now that the British have wounded the tiger, they have to control it. They cannot leave the tiger alone, since in this case the rematch will inevitably take place where and when it suits the USA. The british actions in the CSA therefore aim to:

  1. take control of a large logistic base in the new continent, sitting right on the doorstep of british caraibic possessions, increasing british control of the central America;
  2. maintain pressure on the USA using confederate troops as potential cannon fodder in place of the thin red line;
  3. in the inevitable next war, better have the USA lay waste mainly to Virginia than to Ontario;
  4. delay next war, since the USA has not the option to attack only Canada or only CSA, but has to attack both Canada and CSA at the same time.
Don't worry, in about half a century the British Empire will dearly regret its choices...
 
One of the biggest obstacles to CSA industrialization, in addition to the financial and other reasons presented before, is that the political elite of the CSA who would be very much in charge, were very much against industrialization as being something not for the CSA. They had a vision of the CSA being an idyllic "squirarchy" run by the "better classes" with servile blacks and lower class whites who were satisfied with being possibly disenfranchised as long as they were well above blacks.

They deluded themselves to thinking that a primarily agricultural south, minimal industry, would be able to afford to import manufactured goods that were needed selling their agricultural products - thus avoiding the need for industrialization and the concomittent industrial class.

It is worth noting that Indian, and also Egyptian, cotton was in the process of replacing cotton from the USA. This of course had the advantage of not being slave raised and even more so from British Imperial possesions or localities under British influence/control.
 
Capatial

Even if they wanted the plantation owners wealth was land and slaves they didn't have much free money to invest.
 
Debt is not a problem for the british, it is the noose that will make the Confederacy dance at London's tune.

Poor whites will work for wages even lower than the already abyssmal ones in England, slaves will be indirectly exploited with an even greater advantage since the british would not have to buy them or feed them.

Now that the British have wounded the tiger, they have to control it. They cannot leave the tiger alone, since in this case the rematch will inevitably take place where and when it suits the USA. The british actions in the CSA therefore aim to:

  1. take control of a large logistic base in the new continent, sitting right on the doorstep of british caraibic possessions, increasing british control of the central America;
  2. maintain pressure on the USA using confederate troops as potential cannon fodder in place of the thin red line;
  3. in the inevitable next war, better have the USA lay waste mainly to Virginia than to Ontario;
  4. delay next war, since the USA has not the option to attack only Canada or only CSA, but has to attack both Canada and CSA at the same time.
Don't worry, in about half a century the British Empire will dearly regret its choices...

It IS a problem for the British as they want to be paid back FIRST. Before anyone is going to invest anything they want to know that you will still own it when the sale goes through and not the bank as it forecloses. Even if you try buying from the bank there is no guarantee that ITS creditors have been paid off. Bankruptcy proceedings are a mess.

Southerners won't work for much less than English workers as they have to eat. Factory workers in England were working for near starvation wages so they can't get much lower.

Unless GB directly involved itself in the war (which would be stupid of it to do!) the possibility of round two will make it LESS likely to invest as the investor's money would likely go up in smoke if that happened. The most likely decision of the US in the next war if the British were involved is to kick the Brits out of Canada first as there would still be at least 6 or so Americans for every Canadian and it would wait until GB is involved in another big war in Europe. Even by 1860 GB could not hold Canada in an all out war with the US. GB is 3,000 miles away from the US while Canada is right next door.
 
To clarify my thought, I was using as a starting point of a British war against the USA a Serajevo-like event taking place at the same time of ACW, the only scenario I consider realistic for an outright British intervention. The British do not come to America to save slavocrats asses, they are out to avenge the event. Economics and political issues are left to post-war period.
 
To clarify my thought, I was using as a starting point of a British war against the USA a Serajevo-like event taking place at the same time of ACW, the only scenario I consider realistic for an outright British intervention. The British do not come to America to save slavocrats asses, they are out to avenge the event. Economics and political issues are left to post-war period.

It would be difficult to imagine the event. Even with the Trent Affair the British Government was looking for a way NOT to get involved. The face saving maneuver Lincoln used was suggested to him through back channels by the British Government itself.

In any case that wouldn't make the Brits invest in the CSA. The British government didn't buy CSA bonds , individual British investors did. This means the debt gives the British Government very little leverage, it isn't owed a dime. The CSA government backed the loans with more cotton than it could possibly get its hands on. It would use whatever it could get its hands on to settle as much of the debt as was possible. The Brits MAY get paid back if they are willing to stretch out the loans, otherwise they are getting pennies on the dollar.
 
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