Could Rommel have survived the purge?

[carlton_bach]

Given how many ranking personnel from the armed forces and Abwehr were employed by the FRG, I'd imagine Rommel gets some sort of advisory position. BW will have a better idea of what Rommel might be offered and accept though.

I doubt he would return to active duty. For one thing, he'd have to go down a rank since the Bundeswehr only goes up to general. However, the Bundeswehr has plenty of civilian positions, and the Rommel myth was powerful stuff. If he decides to play along - and he was a careerist with an eye on the main chance - he could well become a very senior official. He's probably too controversial for Wehrbeauftragter or Staatssekrtetär im Verteidigungsministerium, but I'm sure they'd fund a desk for him in the Hauptabteilung Rüstung. Everybody would call him Generalfeldmarschall anyway.

(A friend of the family entered the civil service in the early 50s. An entire department of the revenue office was staffed by ex-navy guys, mnost of them from the same u-boat crew, and whenever the department head gave instruction, they'd click their heels and go "Jawohl, Herr Kapitänleutnant!". Early West Germany was weird.)

 

[Mr Qwerty]

Besides what about his family and friends. Could he hide everyone?

That's an importent point-his family are hostage.

 

[BlairWitch749]

What do you think? Could Rommel have survived the purge of German officers following Valkyrie by;

1. Defecting to the west?

2. Surrounding himself with loyal troops?

3. Gone into hiding?

1. no totally outside his character, and largely outside the character of most of the german officer corps (plus hitler would murder his family; and rommel was very much a family man)

2. 21st panzer and panzer lehr where the only divisions that might follow an order of his not sanctioned by high command; and those two formations where in the process of being destroyed at falaise along with the rest of the german army in the west

3. no see above; he didn't want hitler to imprison or kill his faimly


also he was never going to retain command even if he affirmed loyalty to hitler; he was well on his way for being relieved for defeatism and not obeying orders from the OKW or high command west; plus guderian was about to be elevated to chief of staff and he didnt have the greatest opinion of rommel or how rommel was running things in france

 

[bernard patton]

To them, he was a dangherously capable Nazi general who had just put their troops through the meat grinder again, not some vaguely reconciliatory, chivalrous former foe. The Rommel myth of Mr Clean-War-Not-A-Nazi is largely a postwar artifact.

Rommel was not a member of the Nazi party, the Afrika Korps was never accused of war crimes and Nazi party officials reported that he constantly criticised their 'incompetence' and unnecessary crimes, so how exactly is it a myth?

 

[Strategos' Risk]

I don't see that working. First off, Rommel would be an unlikely person to do it under the berst of circumstances, but that's another story. Even if, though, the first problem is that the western Allies would be unlikely to accept him in any capacity other than prisoner. To them, he was a dangherously capable Nazi general who had just put their troops through the meat grinder again, not some vaguely reconciliatory, chivalrous former foe. The Rommel myth of Mr Clean-War-Not-A-Nazi is largely a postwar artifact.

Secondly, they had little to offer. They had very little shared ideological basis, and what they had - a vague commitment to national self-determination and democracy of sorts - would not motivate Rommel to a sudden conversion. You could argue a second-tier German general had seen the truth of Marxism, but of - what, "United Nationism"? Hardly.

Thirdly, their Rommel could offer nothing attractive to his men. The Allied war aim at this stage is unconditional surrender, with the borderline genocidal Morgenthau plan in the filing cabinet and no great expectations of any future for Germany. Nobody intended to create the FRG, so basically, it's: "Come over to the Western side, we'll not ship you to safety but ionstead send you back to the trenches, only this time when you get caught you get a bullet from your own side, plus, your family goes to Dachau. But anyway, I'm pretty sure they won't shoot all of you after the war, and they probably won't castrate you, either."

The word you are looking for is "surrender", not "defect". He could have done that. Other German generals pulled it off.

What if FDR has a Lincoln moment and creates a policy that would incite anti-Nazi German units to rebel against their leaders, a la Emancipation Proclamation?

 

[BlairWitch749]

ok, now i am more prepared to comment; was swamped all day

Rommel wasn't going to survive; Hitler was MORE than prepared to put him before the court of honor and then the people's trial with a summary execution; Rommel killing himself was just useful for political and morale purposes BUT had he been uncooperative, Hitler would have done what was required... Hitler wasn't afraid to punish or hang out ANYONE

Rommel's own involvement in the plot was circumstantial; his staff was heavily involved; but he himself did not lend direct support, his role was directly analgous to Kluge

the only POD that has him survive the post valkeryrie house cleaning is for him not to be where he was, with those people... maybe the spat that got rommel kicked out of italy goes worse and hitler summarily retires him (which Guderian, Kesselring, Keitel and Jodl where buggeing for) or sends him to command a quiet outpost where he stays out of trouble (norway or crete)

rommel can then be picked up by the western allies

now how they handle him would be very interesting

Guderian and Manstein committed all their crimes in the east and against fellow germans (Guderian was a member of the court of honor and allowed hundreds of officers to be sent to certain death at the people's court) (plus they both allowed and facilitated the movement of the einsatzgruppen in their rear areas

Rommel committed his crimes in the west; so he could conceivably treated differently

his crimes

1. (with numerous french and german witnesses) he ordered the illegal execution of an uncooperative 9th french army staff officer
2. he illegally took pow's hostage in retaliation for a german hospital accidently being bombed
3. (depending on the POD; my suggestion allow this one to exist but whatever) he directed the construction of the atlantic wall which was built with slave labor

number 3 and his personality would be curious in how the west handled him... he didn't create the slave labor conditions the workers found themselves in (that honor belonging to Speer and hitler) BUT he knew what their situation was and didn't resign in protest or refuse his position due to their conditions (which were 1 or 2 steps better than Dachau)

also Rommel was a political appointee, outside of Reichenau and Guderian no other officer enjoyed as much political (nazi) love as he did

now I have a much harder personal scale than what was allowed at nuremberg... as far as I am concerned Rommel based on point 3 was just as guilty as Hitler himself and if he survived, he should have been sentenced to death by hanging for his indifference to the suffering of humanity; he is no better than an einsatzgruppen executioner as far as i am concerned (Guderian and Manstein and Speidel amongst dozens of others should have hung for the slime of humanity they where during the war)

his fate honestly depends on how much of a point the french want to make with him... it might be decided that it is politically expediant for him not to be tried and given some position of authority in the embryo of the bundswer

if the french don't press the point monty and others in the brit camp will claim he fought a tought but clean war in africa and press for him to be released

rommel will be interviewed by little-hart and will be able to produce his memoirs in conjunction with bayerlin.... they would be world wide best sellers; perhaps he and monty would do some kind of book tour

 

[Strategos' Risk]

now I have a much harder personal scale than what was allowed at nuremberg... as far as I am concerned Rommel based on point 3 was just as guilty as Hitler himself and if he survived, he should have been sentenced to death by hanging for his indifference to the suffering of humanity; he is no better than an einsatzgruppen executioner as far as i am concerned (Guderian and Manstein and Speidel amongst dozens of others should have hung for the slime of humanity they where during the war)

Hmm, who would pass according to your criteria? How would Erwin von Witzleben fare? The other high ranking officers of the July 20 Bomb Plot?

 

[UrbanRedneck]

I heard once that Rommel didnt allow Jews to be deported in areas where he controlled. Does anyone know if this is true?

 

[jmc247]

I heard once that Rommel didnt allow Jews to be deported in areas where he controlled. Does anyone know if this is true?

Yes its correct.

Popular stories of his chivalry and tactical prowess earned him the respect of many opponents, including Claude Auchinleck, Winston Churchill, George S. Patton, and Bernard Montgomery. Rommel, for his part, was both complimentary and respectful of his foes.

The Afrika Korps were never accused of any war crimes, and Rommel himself referred to the fighting in North Africa as Krieg ohne Hass—war without hate. Numerous examples exist of Rommel's chivalry towards Allied POWs, such as his defiance of Hitler's infamous Commando Order following the capture of Lt. Roy Woodridge and Lt. George Lane as part of Operation Fortitude. He also refused to comply with Hitler's order to execute Jewish POWs.

During Rommel's time in France, Hitler ordered him to deport the country's Jewish population; Rommel disobeyed. Several times he wrote letters protesting against the treatment of the Jews. When British Major Geoffrey Keyes was killed during a failed commando raid to kill or capture Rommel behind German lines, Rommel ordered him buried with full military honours.

Also, during the construction of the Atlantic Wall, Rommel directed that French workers were not to be used as slaves, but were to be paid for their labour.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erwin_Rommel

 

[AdA]

wife and kid

Rommel was given the choice of suicide, and a state hero funeral with his fammily being looked after, or being killed and his wife and son risking everything. For a devoted husband and father as he was, that was a nobrainer.
For a professional officer escaping to the allies, even if he could somehow smuggle his wife and son with him would be to much like deserting and I don't think he even though about it.

 

[Alratan]

Thinking about it, is th ebest way t save Rommel to say that he's more injured when his car is strafed, and sleeps away the rest of the war in a coma, only to wake up as the war ends?

 

[BlairWitch749]

Hmm, who would pass according to your criteria? How would Erwin von Witzleben fare? The other high ranking officers of the July 20 Bomb Plot?

Some in the July 20 (if they survived) I would have hung anyway; ex Treskow... Treskow as chief of staff of army group center facilitated and arranged operations for Einsatzgruppen C and B which liquidated 100's of thousands of people; plus as an army group level staff officer he could be held guilty for the ruthless enforcement of the commisar order that went on in army group center; just because he was anti hitler doesn't make him a saint... stalin was anti hitler in 1944 too... I would have hung him for crimes against humanity and not felt the slightest regret

Witzleben is different; he never served in the east; and he was out of the service due to poor health during the brutal anti partisan sweeps in France... the 1st army in france didn't have any notable war crimes that I am aware of in may 1940... unless someone knows something he did illegal, I'd have no problem letting him go

On my standard nearly all army and army group commanders would be hung, along with their staffs... army is probably the lowest level I would consider prosecuting (taking it down to corps level would make investigation far too big and time consuming, and icing the army, army group, senior high command and the staff officers would send the message I would be looking for anyway)

 

[BlairWitch749]

Yes its correct.

This is so circumstantial as to not be worthy of consideration... the cleanliness of Rommel's war was a side effect of a few things

1. The British where not considered racially inferior people worthy of slavery or death; nor did hitler decree that their political ideology warranted death

2. There was a general absence of civilians in most of the combat area's in north africa

3. Nobody cared in the post war press to notice how ruthless and nasty rommel's troops where during operation alaric (where the germans disarmed the italian army) they where liberal shooting people, and Rommel used the oportunity to settle scores that he had built up with the Italian military establishment during his time in Africa

4. After 4 years of Vichy and German occupation in France... how many Jews do you think where left there for Rommel to oppress... put him there as commander of western forces in 1941 he would be sending french jews to dachau... I don't recall his viewing of the einsatzgruppen in Poland (as Hitler's bodyguard commander) stirring his Christian sensibilities as to the suffering they caused, or him offering his resignation in protest

 

[BlairWitch749]

Rommel was given the choice of suicide, and a state hero funeral with his fammily being looked after, or being killed and his wife and son risking everything. For a devoted husband and father as he was, that was a nobrainer.
For a professional officer escaping to the allies, even if he could somehow smuggle his wife and son with him would be to much like deserting and I don't think he even though about it.

Plus he was VERY attached to a lot of his staff; who would face certain execution (many did anyway, but his sacrifice did spare some)

 

[Strategos' Risk]

What would you say about Alexander von Falkenhausen this is important

 

[BlairWitch749]

What would you say about Alexander von Falkenhausen this is important

by the BW standard, at his level of command he bore responsibility for the deportation and subsequent death of 30k Belgian jews on top of a few other things of smaller nature

on my standard he hangs

on the allied standard he gets off with a medium to light sentence because he was in the anti hitler crowd and his occupation (compared to others) wasn't hyper ruthless like the Ukraine or Yugoslavia

 

[lothaw]

by the BW standard, at his level of command he bore responsibility for the deportation and subsequent death of 30k Belgian jews on top of a few other things of smaller nature

on my standard he hangs

on the allied standard he gets off with a medium to light sentence because he was in the anti hitler crowd and his occupation (compared to others) wasn't hyper ruthless like the Ukraine or Yugoslavia

Chiang Kai-shek probably would have requested clemency for him anyways. Chiang really liked Falkenhausen for some reason.

 

[BlairWitch749]

Chiang Kai-shek probably would have requested clemency for him anyways. Chiang really liked Falkenhausen for some reason.

Chiang really liked Hitler at one point too; Falkenhausen was sentenced to 12 years in otl (commuted to 4)

 

[Strategos' Risk]

Wiki seems contradictory on this:

Military governor for Belgium

Recalled to active duty in 1938, he served as an infantry general on the Western Front until his appointment as military governor for Belgium in May 1940. While serving as military governor his administration published 17 decrees against the Jewish population of Belgium as preparatory measures leading in June 1942 to the Final Solution and the deportation of 28,900 Jews.
His deputy for economic affairs, Eggert Reeder was responsible for the destruction of "Jewish influence" in the Belgian economy, leading to mass unemployment of Jewish workers, especially in the diamond business. Some 2250 of these unemployed were thus sent to forced labour camps in Northern France in order to build the Atlantic Wall for the TODT organisation. Some 43,000 non-Jewish Belgians were also deported to German camps of which 13,000 died. Hundreds of resistance fighters were shot by the German army during the occupation.

Placed on trial in Brussels from 9 March 1951 and defended by lawyer Ernst Achenbach (1909-1991), they were tried for their role in the deportation of more than 30,000 Jews from Belgium, and not for their deaths in Auschwitz. During his trial, von Falkenhausen was vouched for by a Chinese woman named Qian Xiuling who was living in Belgium, who together with various Belgian Jews provided copious evidence that both men had tried to save Belgian and Jewish lives. They were both found guilty on 9 July, and sentenced to 12 years hard labour in Germany.

Next question: Canaris has a clean record, doesn't he?

 

[BlairWitch749]

Wiki seems contradictory on this:





Next question: Canaris has a clean record, doesn't he?

They were deported and the Jews where dead....his "reluctance" was certainly not as convincing as the mountain of blood on his hands

Canaris seems to have been one of the few honest to god senior members of the German government with a shred of human decency; no war crimes; long record of verbal and actionable dissent to Hitler and his crimes;