Could Patton have reached Berlin?

[karl2025]

As the Allies advance on Berlin, they'd probably get more German soldiers surrendering than the Russians would. Generally they knew they'd receive better treatment with the Western Allies than the Soviets. That said, the battle for Berlin would still be brutal, but capturing it would put the West in a much better position for the postwar conflict with the USSR, due to both the uranium taken from the Kaiser Whilhelm Institute and the strategic position.

By capturing Berlin, all of Germany could be in the Western camp and Czechoslovakia (Or at least the Czech Republic) might be as well, so if/when NATO is formed, it'll be stronger. The liklihood of a war breaking out between the USSR and the West would be more likely though because of the lack of a balance of power.

 

[Amerigo Vespucci]

Chris, I'm going to go with George Carty and ObssesedNuker and refer you to the scenario in What Ifs? of American History, edited by Robert Crowley. The section in there dealing with the advance to Berlin is the most well-thought-out and likely scenario I've found.

 

[Markus]

Could he have reached Berlin? Sure. Taken it? Not quite as sure. the Soviets took as many total casualties capturing Berlin proper (80,000-100,000) as the U.S. expected to take in the full invasion of Japan, in both Coronet & Olympic.

The U.S. expected horrible casualties on a regular basis.
They totally overestimated the risk and casualties of Overlord and did so in Japan again - just worse. IIRC they could have gone straight to Tokyo Bay and faced minimal resistance, because the Japanese had send alomost everyone and everything to Kyushu, didn´t they? But a certain leader I know you don´t like was opposed to it, because Kyushu was his operation, Tokyo would have been the Navy´s show.

About Berlin, just imagine you are a Landser there. To the left are the Russians shouting: "If we get you, your ass goes to Siberia!" On the other side are the Amis, they say: "Surrender to us and you get a clean bed in a POW camp where we will feed you with Coca&Cola, Corned Beef and Chocolate and give you cirgarettes until you die of cancer!"

Now, who would you fight and who would you surrender to?
Landers fought the Russians to the last day, but when the Yanks and Brits resumed their offensive in 45 something never seen before happened; germans soldiers surrendered by the thousands after token resistance or no resistance at all and later in May even more literally fought to be taken prisoner by the western allies. Massive resistance in Berlin? Hardly imagineable!

About the other valuable places to grab. In Austria and Czechoslaviaka the Russians beat you, too. All the overcaution got you was a worse starting position in the Cold War.

@Amerigo Vespucci: That isn´t the scenario that has the US units push past Magdeburg just to be stopped after an "accidental" soviet air strike or two?

 

[burmafrd]

US invasion of any Japanese Home island would have been terribly bloody. There were thousands of Kamikaze's found after the war = and remember if the military had had its way the whole population would have been used as militia. I think 200-300,000 US casualties would not have been out of the question.

By the way you really out to take a closeer look at what the Battle of Berlin cost the Red army. There were a lot more then 25,000 german defenders.

http://www.olive-drab.com/od_history_ww2_ops_battles_1945berlin.php

 

[Slamet]

1) As the Allies advance on Berlin, they'd probably get more German soldiers surrendering than the Russians would.

2) That said, the battle for Berlin would still be brutal, but capturing it would put the West in a much better position for the postwar conflict with the USSR, due to both the uranium taken from the Kaiser Whilhelm Institute and the strategic position.

1) That was actually a plan advocated by the (remaining) Nazi leaders that were not diehards.They moved the remaining divs that were in the Western Front and commited them to the Eastern Front. That's why the Allies advanced so fast in those last days. See Fall of Berlin by Anthony Beevor. It's quite a good book, but it views the capture of Berlin mainly from the eyes of the Russkis. It was what Stalin believed and feared.

2) If it's scientists you're looking for, you don't need to actually capture Berlin. Anyway I thought the Allies had enough uranium already. The uranium in the USSR was mainly low quality and few in numbers.

 

[CalBear]

US invasion of any Japanese Home island would have been terribly bloody. There were thousands of Kamikaze's found after the war = and remember if the military had had its way the whole population would have been used as militia. I think 200-300,000 US casualties would not have been out of the question.

By the way you really out to take a closeer look at what the Battle of Berlin cost the Red army. There were a lot more then 25,000 german defenders.

http://www.olive-drab.com/od_history_ww2_ops_battles_1945berlin.php

The 25K refers to the number of German troops inside the city proper. There were, of course, a far larger number outside the City. The 25K however, were mostly Waffen SS and Hitler Youth. They were the most fanatical, close, if not the equal to, the Japanese defenders on Iwo Jima or Okinawa.

The overall Soviet casualities in the entire Berlin offensive are also rather staggering, with close to 500,000 men. This does reflect the extreme reluctance of German units to surrender themselves to the doubtful mercies of the NKVD and the resulting "last stand" mentality of many units but the total Red Army losses are still incredible.

 

[Slamet]

The 25K refers to the number of German troops inside the city proper. There were, of course, a far larger number outside the City. The 25K however, were mostly Waffen SS and Hitler Youth. They were the most fanatical, close, if not the equal to, the Japanese defenders on Iwo Jima or Okinawa.

The overall Soviet casualities in the entire Berlin offensive are also rather staggering, with close to 500,000 men. This does reflect the extreme reluctance of German units to surrender themselves to the doubtful mercies of the NKVD and the resulting "last stand" mentality of many units but the total Red Army losses are still incredible.

1) The Hitler Youth members were practically useless. Not to mention the Volksstrum, which there were 2 'divs' on paper, which one wasn't even armed. At all. The battered SS divisions Pz.Div. Kurmark, Nordland and most ironically Charlemagne (consists of French volunteers!) played most of the defense part. Not as fanatical as the Japanese, unfortunately. They didn't even have a fanatical battlecry (Banzai! Sichisei Hokoku!)

2) The Red Army losses were, to most part, due to errors in command. There were 2 commanders driving their respective armies to Berlin without demacration lines. Those two were also duking it out for the honor of capturing Berlin, racing each other. Not bothering about the losses. As a result a good percentage of Red Army losses were inflicted by their own sides, like from artillery barrages firing at general targets.

 

[ranoncles]

About Berlin, just imagine you are a Landser there. To the left are the Russians shouting: "If we get you, your ass goes to Siberia!" On the other side are the Amis, they say: "Surrender to us and you get a clean bed in a POW camp where we will feed you with Coca&Cola, Corned Beef and Chocolate and give you cirgarettes until you die of cancer!"

Now, who would you fight and who would you surrender to?

Yes, the average landser would much rather surrender to the Western allies. Even the SS butchers preferred that because they thought they would be seen as honourable warriors instead of the murderous scum they actually were. How many of them would have surrendered if they knew they would be handed over to the Russians anyway?

But the point is, much of the remaining troops in Berlin were Foreign SS troops. For example, the troops that fought to the last in the chancellery were French SS troops. These foreigners had chosen Nazism over their own country and were pretty aware of what future awaited them in their own countries. They had nothing to lose and nothing to win.

They would have fought to the end, against any opponent.

On a different note, Patton by sentiment and ability and his Third Army by temperament and organization didn't do city fighting too well, nor did the other American armies (Aachen for example).


Berlin would have been a difficult nut to crack. They could have done it eventually but it seems rather more likely that Patton would have reached Berlin easy enough, only to bog down in city fighting against Nazi diehards. Meanwhile, the furious Russians break through in the East and storm Berlin and wipe out anything in their way.

 

[Slamet]

But the point is, much of the remaining troops in Berlin were Foreign SS troops. For example, the troops that fought to the last in the chancellery were French SS troops. These foreigners had chosen Nazism over their own country and were pretty aware of what future awaited them in their own countries. They had nothing to lose and nothing to win.

They would have fought to the end, against any opponent.

One of the last Iron Cross awardees was French. In fact the penultimate one.

 

[mattep74]

I have read the history about the 9th armys downfall by a swedish writer and according to him(and every other author that have written about the final battle) the commanders told the men in the trenches to hold out until the americans got there. The commander of the 9th army wanted Shermans to run up his ass to save the day.

 

[mattep74]

But the point is, much of the remaining troops in Berlin were Foreign SS troops. For example, the troops that fought to the last in the chancellery were French SS troops. These foreigners had chosen Nazism over their own country and were pretty aware of what future awaited them in their own countries. They had nothing to lose and nothing to win.

There were a few swedes in Nordland in Berlin and one of them threw his uniform off when the surrender came, told a russian he was a reporter, walked to the embassy, got papers, travled home

 

[Zyzzyva]

There were a few swedes in Nordland in Berlin and one of them threw his uniform off when the surrender came, told a russian he was a reporter, walked to the embassy, got papers, travled home

That is so awesome it almost makes up for his being an SS trooper. I feel conflicted.

 

[Slamet]

That is so awesome it almost makes up for his being an SS trooper. I feel conflicted.

Well, a lot more SS men crossed the Elbe and pretended they were civilians. How? Fake passports and such. It wasn't until the US found that the members of the SS had their blood type tatooed that they were prosecuted. Of course, by that time a lot of SS had infiltrated the lines...

 

[Markus]

2) The Red Army losses were, to most part, due to errors in command. There were 2 commanders driving their respective armies to Berlin without demacration lines. Those two were also duking it out for the honor of capturing Berlin, racing each other. Not bothering about the losses. As a result a good percentage of Red Army losses were inflicted by their own sides, like from artillery barrages firing at general targets.

The russian casualty figures -actually 360,000 acc. to wikipedia- include the men lost and wounded from the start of the offensive ... which was a big mess: At the Seelow Hights the artillery barrage hit nothing, so the attackers ran into largely unweakended defenders and suffered horrible casualties.

 

[Slamet]

The russian casualty figures -actually 360,000 acc. to wikipedia- include the men lost and wounded from the start of the offensive ... which was a big mess: At the Seelow Hights the artillery barrage hit nothing, so the attackers ran into largely unweakended defenders and suffered horrible casualties.

Yes. In fact a lot of Hitler's cities which had been designated festungen and ordered to fight to the last man were put on siege and bypassed, which was actually bright for the Soviets.

Seelow wasn't Zhukov's only mistake. But it was his most severe one. Tragically, it could be prevented. I mean, advancing 2 tank armies againts an obstacle like Seelow Heights?

Could Patton have made similar mistakes? Considering his temperament...

 

[Markus]

Could Patton have made similar mistakes? Considering his temperament...

Maybe, but would he or others have faced such natural obstacles? From Magdeburg to Berlin its all flat there, you don´t even need to worry about rivers if you follow the railroad line. And the Americans did not face much opposition from ground troops on their way east.

 

[Slamet]

Maybe, but would he or others have faced such natural obstacles? From Magdeburg to Berlin its all flat there, you don´t even need to worry about rivers if you follow the railroad line. And the Americans did not face much opposition from ground troops on their way east.

OK, he wouldn't have faced such formidable obstacles But it's all different in Berlin. With the Allied top brass presurring him and the Russians menacingly staring at him, not to mention competition with the 'Circus' division (hell, I forgot the real name , just the defining traits) named because it had a lot of captured equipment.

 

[Amerigo Vespucci]

@Amerigo Vespucci: That isn´t the scenario that has the US units push past Magdeburg just to be stopped after an "accidental" soviet air strike or two?

Indeed it is. And whether or not the quotation marks are put around accidental, it seems plausible to me, given the personalities on either side. As the scenario says, Eisenhower's big fear was of friendly fire between the Allies and Soviets.

 

[Markus]

As the scenario says, Eisenhower's big fear was of friendly fire between the Allies and Soviets.

I would not call this a good scenario at all, but it illustrates Ike´s apalling overcaution.

@Slamet: Not circus, but Hell on wheels!

 

[Slamet]

I would not call this a good scenario at all, but it illustrates Ike´s apalling overcaution.

@Slamet: Not circus, but Hell on wheels!

I've found Patton's closest rival : the 83rd Infantry Division 'Rag-Tag Circus' - named because it had a lot of captured vehicles just spray-painted olive green and given the white star Both reached (with the 2nd Arm. Div.) the river Weiser on 5th April 1945.