Could New Netherlands or New Sweden have been set up elsewhere?

raharris1973

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New Netherlands on the Hudson (55 total years) and New Sweden on the Delaware (17 years) were fairly short-lived colonies that were taken over by England and which were located between more populous colonies to the north in New England and to the south in Virginia.

Could the Dutch or Swedes have established their colonies elsewhere, and could that have resulted in greater longevity for them?

My initial thoughts go to eastern seaboard locations north of early New England (Basically Maine or Portsmouth, New Hampshire) or south of Virginia (on the coast of OTL Georgia or Carolinas, although South Carolina seems like a neat location to work with). But you may propose other locations further afield.

Would the Dutch or Swedes have found Maine or the Carolinas sufficiently interesting for them to invest for any sustained period? Would the Swedish colony, wherever placed, been as likely as OTL to fall to the Dutch? Would the Dutch colony, wherever placed, been more likely as OTL to fall to the English or later British?
 
You can butterfly away New Netherlands if Plymouth Colony is set up on Manhattan Island, and New Sweden if the Anne Hutchinson followers settle in Delaware as planned.

Since there's nothing keeping the Dutch from conquering north Brazil/New Holland, all the would-be settlers and administrators of New Netherlands may very go there instead. New Holland did recruit Jews and Dutchmen already, so having all the extra colonists to stake claims into the captured land would only help.

Sweden I couldn't tell you. New Sweden is quite the footnote of history.
 

raharris1973

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QUOTE]You can butterfly away New Netherlands if Plymouth Colony is set up on Manhattan Island, and [/QUOTE]

yep - although it might mean war with the Dutch in Albany

New Sweden if the Anne Hutchinson followers settle in Delaware as planned.
[/QUOTE]

They could, but they have to be quick - both Anne's trial and the Swedish landing were in March 1638. And wonder how many followers she had compared to how many Swedes.


Since there's nothing keeping the Dutch from conquering north Brazil/New Holland, all the would-be settlers and administrators of New Netherlands may very go there instead. New Holland did recruit Jews and Dutchmen already, so having all the extra colonists to stake claims into the captured land would only help.

they could only help Dutch efforts there, although it doesn't guarantee victory over the Portuguese-Brazilians with their greater numbers etc.


Sweden I couldn't tell you. New Sweden is quite the footnote of history.
Mighty small and short-lived yes
 
You can butterfly away New Netherlands if Plymouth Colony is set up on Manhattan Island, and New Sweden if the Anne Hutchinson followers settle in Delaware as planned.

Since there's nothing keeping the Dutch from conquering north Brazil/New Holland, all the would-be settlers and administrators of New Netherlands may very go there instead. New Holland did recruit Jews and Dutchmen already, so having all the extra colonists to stake claims into the captured land would only help.

Sweden I couldn't tell you. New Sweden is quite the footnote of history.

Since New Netherland was first, you can't butterfly it away with Plymouth.
 
The problem with New Netherlands and New Sweden was that they were sandwiched in between English colonies which grew faster and more military support from the home country. If the Dutch colony was based in OTL New England that might work. New Sweden...not so sure.
 
I think the Dutch already had claims to the Hudson River valley before 1620 - if the Separatists/Pilgrims had gone to Manhattan the Dutch might have moved in soon anyway and forced the small Pilgrim community to recognize their authority. Ironically, the Pilgrims would be back to their situation in Europe, living in Netherlands territory.

For a different location for the Dutch colony in North America, you might have to go back a few years and not have Henry Hudson sail for the Netherlands, or have him land on a different area of the coast. The Netherlands' claims in North America came mainly from his voyage.
 

raharris1973

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If you don't mind some multi-PODage and use of another poster's material, how about we go with this:

Henry Hudson's voyage for the Dutch in 1609 originally aimed for far northern latitudes but was blocked by ice, so he decided to look for a passage to the Pacific further south on the American coast. (as he did in OTL).

He reaches New Foundland, Cape Cod and then the mouth of the Chesapeake (as he did in OTL). However, he proceeds north into the bay to try to find a passage route (this is the PoD), as opposed to turning around and moving up further along the coast to Delaware Bay and Hudson River.

Unbeknownst to Hudson, John Smith is simultaneously exploring the bay, but the two do not encounter each other.

Regardless of what Hudson and company thinking about what may be attractive in the bay, on the way out of the bay they scout some of the James River and meet the wretched, starving Jamestowners. Luckily this meeting is short and comes off without violence. But it becomes apparent that the Chesapeake Bay is too big for the English and Dutch. Hudson's crew's patience exhausted, they head back across the Atlantic.

As in OTL, Hudson's next voyage under English hire is oriented to a northern route by which his discovers Hudson's Bay but he never returns because he pushes too far and his crew mutinies. (as in OTL)

However, the next covert voyages sponsored by the admiralty of Amsterdam under Adriaen Block, Hendrick Christiaensen, and Cornelius Jacobsen Mey from 1611-1614 do not have the same OTL geographic objectives of the region between Maryland and Massachussetts, especially without Hudson's reports indicating rich fur trade possibilities up the Hudson river.

Instead they turn south from the mouth of the Chesapeake and explore the Carolina coast, where they make some landfalls and good fur trades in the Charleston area, before turning around the Savannah river and they call the region New Netherlands.

There are no Dutch overt missions or claims for the remainder of the truce years with Spain (till 1619), because of the proximity to Florida, but Dutch merchants contemplate the trading opportunities, and in case of renewed war with Spain the privateering opportunities against the Spanish. The South Carolina region is more ideally placed for anti-Spanish privateering than points further northeast. The Dutch openly claim the area between St. Augustine and Roanoke island and begin colonization initiatives, specifically around Charleston, in 1619.

Despite some Spanish attacks, and Dutch counter-attacks and privateering, New Netherlands South Carolina becomes a base for successful fur-trading, cattle-raising and privateering at first, some attempts are made to grow sugar and tobacco, and all in all the Dutch hold survives the thirty years war.

Meanwhile, further north, the English settle Plymouth and Massachussetts Bay. A Puritan great migration kicks off by the end of the 1620s, and English colonists, possibly based from Maryland or Virginia, but more likely explorers or dissenters from Massachussetts, explore and begin settlements in Manhattan, the Hudson Valley and New Jersey.

In 1638, (second PoD) the Swedes begin their alternate colonization, much further north, around Halifax, Nova Scotia, as in Allen McDonnell's post here:

It starts like this, in 1637 when Sweden starts talking about building a
colony at the highest levels the Royal Chancelor orders all the ship
Captains in port to write a report about what they know of the coast of
North America. Most of the information is already known about ports visited
and rivers where fresh water was taken aboard but one gets his attention.
Early in the year 1632 one of the Swedish fishing boats encountered a harsh
storm and was driven due west to the coast where they sought shelter in an
uncharted harbor. The Captain, Erik Haraldson writes of the harbor as the
best he has ever seen anywhere in his travels and gives the location, 44
Degrees 26 Minutes North. Best of all five years earlier the region was
completely vacant of Europeans and the plant life was much like that seen
around the Swedish coast of the Baltic Sea.

It is decided to send the colonists early the next spring in 1638. First
they will try and locate Erik Haraldsons harbor but if it is already
occupied they will venture further south to where a major river enters the
Atlantic at 39 Degrees 58 Minutes North latitude. The former location is
prefered because the secondary location has a Dutch colony on the north side
and an English colony on the south side, either of which might cause
problems soon. The northern colony site is south and far east of the French
colony of Quebec which was settled in 1608, and far north of the most
northern English colony at Plymouth founded in 1620.

Sweden feels that they are being left behind by the other sailing nations of
Europe so they make the colony a big push with several ships of healthy
young men and their wives and children. Lumberjacks, carpenters, ship
builders, farmers, Blacksmiths, every vital craft is recruited with a
leavening of master craftsman but mostly journeymen freshly married. They
arrive in spring 1638 and discover that Erik Haraldson Harbor is everything
they were told to expect or even better. Land is cleared and planted, a
stockade is built from the felled trees along with proper docks and then
rough housing is constructed.

A few weeks later a fishing boat sails into the harbor. The Captain had
planned to use the harbor as a secure place to dry his catch of Cod before
sailing back to Europe and was quite surprised to discover his secret harbor
is now occupied. The colony leaders welcome him and buy his catch outright
on the spot, making the Captain a very happy man. After discussion with the
leaders he decides to relocate his home base to Christiana, Novo Sweden,
Haraldson Harbor.


By the time of the peace of Westphalia (1648), English settlements dot the seaboard from Massachussetts to the Outer Banks, north of Maine, the French predominate, and they also possess the Bay side of Nova Scotia, while the Swedes control the Atlantic coast of Nova Sweden based around OTL Halifax. Finally, the Dutch form a buffer between Virginia and Florida, and New Netherlands (South Carolina) will soon be the scene of plantation agriculture based on rice and indigo mainly.

How do things proceed from there, especially in North America, from 1650-1800?

thoughts?
 
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Just looking at the map, Newfoundland looks very much like a North American equivalent of the British Isles, but in 1600 there was still the little ice age, so I wonder if Newfoundland was passable for European agriculture at that time. If so, that would be an interesting area to colonise.
 
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