Could Mussolini have redeemed himself?

But it did OTL... It was a catastrophe but it did happen.

Only once the knife was literally placed next to her neck, and even than it wasen't Mussolini switching sides; it was a royal coup by conservatives trying to save their hindquarters. Mussolini himself was rescued and remained a loyal friend of Hitler to the end.
 
And Uncle Joe only switched sides when Hitler invaded him. The rest of your post is irrelevant as you specifically said that Italy couldn't switch sides not that Mussolini wouldn't.

Several problems with what you're saying. 1) The USSR was not part of the Axis nor that economically or politically integrated REMOTELY as deeply as Italy was when they were invaded. The two nations were occasionally co-operating (with more zones of tension than areas they were in actual agreement on) and in a tact non-aggression pact at best, which gave the Soviets alot more leeway. 2) I find it disingenious for you to say the USSR "switched" sides; that implies they willingly did something. Unlike Italy, who declared and jumped into the war with the Allies of their own volition, Stalin ended up at war with Germany when he did because the Germans thrust it upon him. 3) Prior to the coup Mussolini WAS the Italian government (or, at the very least, without his approval Italy isen't going to be making any major diplomatic or military moves), and if you somehow remove him from the picture he can't exactly be redeeming himself as is the premise of this thread. The nation and the man, so far as this thread is concerned, are unavoidably intertwined.
 
You: Italy couldn't change sides
me: but it did OTL
you: Mussolini didn't do that
me: follow the conversation mate, I made no claims that Mussolini switched sides.
you:
Several problems with what you're saying. 1) The USSR was not part of the Axis nor that economically or politically integrated REMOTELY as deeply as Italy was when they were invaded. The two nations were occasionally co-operating (with more zones of tension than areas they were in actual agreement on) and in a tact non-aggression pact at best, which gave the Soviets alot more leeway. 2) I find it disingenious for you to say the USSR "switched" sides; that implies they willingly did something. Unlike Italy, who declared and jumped into the war with the Allies of their own volition, Stalin ended up at war with Germany when he did because the Germans thrust it upon him. 3) Prior to the coup Mussolini WAS the Italian government (or, at the very least, without his approval Italy isen't going to be making any major diplomatic or military moves), and if you somehow remove him from the picture he can't exactly be redeeming himself as is the premise of this thread. The nation and the man, so far as this thread is concerned, are unavoidably intertwined.
Congrats on getting sidetracked twice in as many responses.
 
Could Italy maintain its neutrality up til around 1942-1943 before the Germans attempt to secure the soft underbelly after trying and failing to get Italy to join the Axis?

Perhaps, but thing is, it wouldn't be a full neutrality. I can't imagine an intervention in Yugoslavia along with Hungary et al. not being attempted and that would put Italy at least in an ambiguous position with the Allies.

While the OTL Italian army was known to be subpar other threads regarding a neutral or allied Italy suggest the latter has extremely defensive terrain (apparently having the opposite issue to France who had a much better army yet poor defensive terrain) including the Alps and Apennines (with the Italians knowing such treacherous terrain much better than the Germans), which would potentially make any attempt to invade Italy being long, costly and bloody affair for Germany that could potentially detract from the war on the Eastern Front as well as buy Italy enough time until the arrival of the Allies.

Germany can very well ignore the Apennines since the industrial heartland lies in a plain in the north.

With regard to the Alps, I don't really know. If we discount the invasion of Greece, whatever was sent there plus the Afrika Korps become available.
There too many variables for me, but someone more knowledgeable could give an educated guess?
 
With regard to the Alps, I don't really know. If we discount the invasion of Greece, whatever was sent there plus the Afrika Korps become available.
There too many variables for me, but someone more knowledgeable could give an educated guess?

In a straight assault to the defensive line in the alps (yep, Benny build a lot of fortifications in case of war against Germany)? It's extremely unfair, they will need to be at least the triple
 
You: Italy couldn't change sides
me: but it did OTL
you: Mussolini didn't do that
me: follow the conversation mate, I made no claims that Mussolini switched sides.
you:

Congrats on getting sidetracked twice in as many responses.

If you want to win the debate on semantics and surface-level literalism, than I fully concede this point: it means nothing. I'm argueing at a slightly deeper level on the substance of the issue reguardless of the specific language we use, hardly getting sidetracked. Do you have any critique of the substance of my statement?
 
In a straight assault to the defensive line in the alps (yep, Benny build a lot of fortifications in case of war against Germany)? It's extremely unfair, they will need to be at least the triple

What about an aerial expedition? How many bombers could the Luftwaffe have spared? Not sure whether they can cross the Alps in any point, but the attack could come from France.
 
What about an aerial expedition? How many bombers could the Luftwaffe have spared? Not sure whether they can cross the Alps in any point, but the attack could come from France.

The French-Italian border it's even worse for the attacker and while the Germans can bypass the alps with the bombers and cause a lot of damage, you don't conquer or beat a nation with only air power.
 
The French-Italian border it's even worse for the attacker and while the Germans can bypass the alps with the bombers and cause a lot of damage, you don't conquer or beat a nation with only air power.

The idea is to stall military production, destroy infrastructure and anything that could slow down the allied progress, especially if the Germans feel M is about to do an about-face and join them.
 
The idea is to stall military production, destroy infrastructure and anything that could slow down the allied progress, especially if the Germans feel M is about to do an about-face and join them.

Well, OTL this kind of strategy had not worked very quickly in any theatre and i talk about years and this is a game that you can play in two, expecially if Benny give the ok to the Allies to use his territoy as a base for their bombers.
 
No, after he tied himself to the Nazis he was toast. There was no way to get rid of THAT stench. Before then, sure. If he remained neutral he probably would have come out all right.

He could have played it like Franco, being an ally but not formally part of the Axis powers.
 
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