Could more German jets during World War II have made a difference?

I mean, think about it. If the Germans had used more jet fighters (such as the Me-262) maybe they could have stopped the bombing campaign for a while, but not by themselves, as they would have needed at least 50 to 60 jets to do any major damage to the bomber fleets and their escorting fighters. So to support the jet fighters, the Germans could use hundreds of Bf-109 and Fw-190 fighters in addition to the jets. But it is certainly possible, giving if the Luftwaffe concentrated their forces and waited for the right moment to attack instead of wasting their efforts by attacking every single bomber raid.
 
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Replicator

Banned
More jets in 1944/45 what would be that good for?? They didnt have much fuel by that time anyway. Only way the jets would have made a difference is if they had bee produced in greater numbers from mid 1943 onwards.
 
Well, they could try and save up enough fuel to use or use captured Allied stocks, with all synthetic fuel stocks going to the Luftwaffe for their use.
 
And I do agree with you on having greater numbers of jet fighters, which is essential if the Germans want to have any chance of stopping the bombing campaign by having mass production of jet fighters starting in 1943 and using the Me-262 as a pure interceptor, not as a fighter bomber like Hitler wanted. Also increased production of fighters like the Bf-109 and Fw-190 would be essential to support the jets as the jets took a lot of time getting up to speed on the runway as well as landing at the airfields they were based at.
 
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Could more jets have made a difference ?

Possibly yes. Sustaining bombing missions suchas that carried out by the RAF at night and the US 8th Airforce by day requries an attrition rate to not exceed 5 % and ideally by < 3 %. If you launch 500 aircraft and lose 40-50 aircraft every mission pretty soon your airforce will run out of skilled crews. Bombing accuracy goes because your crews are inexperienced. Attrition creeps up because your air gunners are not as good and your pilots not as adept at avoiding trouble or keeping the thing in the air when damaged. You don't need to shoot down every aircraft. You need to get the bomber attrition rate > 6% and ensure your fighter losses are < 4%. If the Me262 can achieve this then certainly daylight operations will be greatly affected or suspended. This gives industry in Germany the opportunity to manufacture more rather than spending several hours a day stuck in air raid shelters. 8th Air force had moved into this loss zone on its longer missions and it was the arrival of long range escorts P51 et al that enabled losses to be managed and the pressure to be put on the German fighter aircraft.
 

Replicator

Banned
The problem from early 1944 onwards was not only fuel but pilotes as well.

A German pilot in 1940 had some 300 flight-hours of training a German pilot in 1944/45 had barely 100 hours of training.

So if the jets are produced from mid 1943 in mass production they can very well temporarily win the air war. Anything later than that and the allies might get bloody noses but it wouldnt change the big picture.
 

Hendryk

Banned
Notwithstanding the widespread fascination with German Wunderwaffen, more of this or that shiny toy would not have made a difference for Germany's ultimate fate.

Let's also keep in mind that the resources and man-hours required to build all those jets would have had to come from somewhere. So which other part of the war effort gets short-changed?

And then, even if we assume that Germany is still fighting by August 1945...
 

iddt3

Donor
Well the Jets certainly aren't going to save them from the Red Army, so there's that.
 
The problem from early 1944 onwards was not only fuel but pilotes as well.

A German pilot in 1940 had some 300 flight-hours of training a German pilot in 1944/45 had barely 100 hours of training.

So if the jets are produced from mid 1943 in mass production they can very well temporarily win the air war. Anything later than that and the allies might get bloody noses but it wouldnt change the big picture.

And the early jets were _very_ unforgiving, putting untrained pilots into them was suicide.
 
And the early jets were _very_ unforgiving, putting untrained pilots into them was suicide.
You're right on the point with the fact that early jets were not something for less experienced pilots, that's why when Adolf Galland formed JV 44 (one of the most elite fighter squadrons in history), he picked some of the most experienced pilots available at the time of its formation during February 1945.
 
If you start producing jets early you are producing jets with engines that really aren't very good. Mass produced jets in mid-1943 means going with the engine designs from mid/late-1942, so no BMW jets (they just didn't work at the time) it has to be Junkers. Problem is at that point your choice is the 'money and rare materials no object' 004A, which Germany will struggle to find the materials to build or the steel 004B which is basically untested and has several major design flaws no-one knows about, as it hasn't been tested.

Basically Germany pumping out jets early means there will be trained pilots for them, fuel to power them but the planes themselves will keep falling out of the sky regardless as the engines will melt/vibrate themselves to pieces/explode. To add to the fun if Germany has built all these useless jets they have both less strategic metals and clever alloys (so less production of anything complex) and less useful fighter aircraft (so they lose the air war that much earlier).

So yes more German jets could have made a difference, they could have made things much worse for Germany.
 
Notwithstanding the widespread fascination with German Wunderwaffen, more of this or that shiny toy would not have made a difference for Germany's ultimate fate.

Let's also keep in mind that the resources and man-hours required to build all those jets would have had to come from somewhere. So which other part of the war effort gets short-changed?

And then, even if we assume that Germany is still fighting by August 1945...

Agree. Plus this topic has been beaten to death several times on this board. But I never object to newer members asking the same questions, since when dealing with "what if" speculations there can never be one final answer and this is a "discussion" board not an encyclopedia.

My opinion hnges on the folllowing:

(1) There is simply no way the metallurgical problems with early jet engines could have been solved much early by Germany no matter how much research was done.
(2) If significant research and production capacity was shifted to jets earlier, this would affect research and production of proven and very capable piston-engined types that could be produced in higher numbers.
(3) The performance advantages of the late 1944 Me-262 over piston engined fighters like the Tempest, P-51, P-47 was not overwhelming. What the advantages jets had in straight line speed (with very slow acceleration, by the way), they lost in manuverability, reliability, endurance, and servicability.
(4) Production, production, production. Training, training, training. Unless you posit ridiculously early introduction of German jets and a radical revision to technology and history, the Luftwaffe's jets will always be facing an opponent who commands the skies over Europe, outnumbers the Luftwaffe, and has more, better trained, and better rested pilots.
(5) As others have said, increased German emphasis on the production of jet aircraft before they were really perfected (arguably they weren't ever perfected) might actually have aided the allies.
(5) And as others have said, Me-262s aren't going to stop Soviet tanks.
 
Short answer: no.

Long answer: Logistics, metallurgy, crap leadership and war situation.
Agree with trekchu.

I'm reading Adam Tooze's "Wages of destruction" at the moment.

You could summarize it that you could basically give Germany 1980's tech and they would still lose WWII.

Germany's industrial base, resources and population are just too little and too few to stand a chance against the combined might of the UK and the USA, let alone if the USSR is added.
 
Firstly lets not lose sight of the fact that the Red Army is on its way, and no jets will stop that. OK! Now we can look at the awesome microcosm of the jets.

IOTL the jets did make a difference, they 'forced' the Allies to mount standing patrols over jet bases and other tactical changes to deal with the threat, despite Me262 only making at best 58 sorties in a day. This in turn led the Germans to put up fighters to protect these bases, resulting in furious dogfights at low level by piston engined fighters. Maybe these German fighters themselves would have been better employed fighting the bombers themselves, but I don't think the Germans were totally stupid and using them as an enabler for jets was probably better overall.

Lets not forget the Arado Blitz and it's potential impact. It was very hard to intercept and did some interesting bombing and recon missions. It also did the first jet on jet combat when it bombed the airfield in Belgium where the Meteors were deployed and bomb shrapnel did minor damage to a Meteor.

So if the stars aligned a bit better the jets may have been available a couple of months sooner and a bit more fuel could have been available then they could have made a small, but larger than OTL difference. Their photo recon take could have allowed the Germans to make counter-moves not possible IOTL due to a lack of intelligence. But their biggest contribution to change would be the Allies having to re-orient their fighters to meet the jet threat, interceptors to fight the Blitz and fighter patrols over bases and heavier escort to fight the 262. This may have meant that some planned offensive mssions by Allied bombers are cancelled due to shartage of fighter escort and some close support missions in support of the ground forces cancelled due to anti-jet missions. All up it might even slow the western Allies down by a couple of days. It might see the acceleration of the Meteor deployment leading to jet on jet clashes in the air. Either way it would increase the coolness factor.
 
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