Could Legumes have worked just as well as Clovers?

[EmperorOfTheNorthSea]

So I was reading up on the British Agricultural revolution and it seems the whole point of growing the clovers was to fix the Nitrogen in the soil. But couldn't more useful Legumes have been used instead even if Phosphorus and other nutrients had to be restored?

In short; did clovers have any advantages that other nitrogen fixers didn't have or was it all due to chance that no tried further experimentation?

 

[Philip]

Clover is a legume.

That beingc said, was clover used as fodder for livestock?

 

[wietze]

So I was reading up on the British Agricultural revolution and it seems the whole point of growing the clovers was to fix the Nitrogen in the soil. But couldn't more useful Legumes have been used instead even if Phosphorus and other nutrients had to be restored?

In short; did clovers have any advantages that other nitrogen fixers didn't have or was it all due to chance that no tried further experimentation?

one advantage i would assume is density of planting, plus this wasn't pure production for human consumption but also as fodder/grazing.
So clover is both a grazing crop and a fodder crop (and also a legume btw, edit - ninja'd).

Crop rotation - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[EmperorOfTheNorthSea]

Clover is a legume.

I just knew some sorry sod was gonna bring that up

 

[EmperorOfTheNorthSea]

one advantage i would assume is density of planting, plus this wasn't pure production for human consumption but also as fodder/grazing.

Ok the density thing I can see but in terms of animal forage one would think that in terms to something like peas (of which the pods are a very small part of the crops overall mass) could still provide fodder for livestock.

 

[Jürgen]

Clover is a legume.

That beingc said, was clover used as fodder for livestock?

Yes, the clover we’re talking about is red clover, which originate in the Middle East and spread to Europe through Spain later to Netherlands and then to the rest of Europe. Its main benefit is that it build a large root system far faster than most legumes resulting in much greater build up of nitrates, it’s flowering result in increased population of pollinations, which result in increase fruit production from fruit trees nearby.

Red clover have the benefit like most legumes to be protein rich, making it a excellent choice for cattle feed. It can also under famines be boiled and eaten by humans. Other legumes can also be used and are used, but few are as good as clovers. Peas while inferior as nitrate fixator are often used, as the secondary product are more valuable.

Peanuts serve the same purpose in the regions where they’re grown.

 

[wietze]

Ok the density thing I can see but in terms of animal forage one would think that in terms to something like peas (of which the pods are a very small part of the crops overall mass) could still provide fodder for livestock.

i think it may have to do with use as a grazing crop, with something that produces a crop that needs to be harvested (the peapods), you can't have cattle grazing on it, you have to wait until after the harvest.
I would think grazing on clover is less restricted, and could be used more like grass.

edit: plus of course clover produces a huge amount of flowers, which will be a huge benefit for a bees & producing honey

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

But couldn't more useful Legumes have been used

Clover is a legume

May I point out that the OP said 'more useful legumes'. Peas are more useful (for human consumption) than clover is.

 

[wietze]

Peas are more useful (for human consumption) than clover is.

and as i stated earlier, the crop rotation often isn't alone for human consumption, yes peas or beans are more useful in that respect, but only in a pure crop growing setting.
As soon it is about mixed usage (crops & animals) then clover becomes more valuable (grazing, fodder, beekeeping )

 

[Arkenfolm]

As for alternate legumes, lupines? They're pretty widespread, are useful as fodder, and with treatment can be eaten by humans.

May I point out that the OP said 'more useful legumes'. Peas are more useful (for human consumption) than clover is.

While I can't say I've ever eaten clovers, I do know that they were a famine food OTL and some species of clovers in North America were an important part of the diet of some Amerindian groups. Perhaps with selective breeding, a different species of clover, or a cultural shift you might get clovers to become a more important part of the Northern European diet?

 

[DanMcCollum]

As for alternate legumes, lupines? They're pretty widespread, are useful as fodder, and with treatment can be eaten by humans.

Yes, but sometimes the cat will choke on the lupines. Especially if they are over zealously distributed to the poor.

 

[colleoni]

I'm not sure why it hasn't come up ( maybe it has to do with the growth season/climate zone) but a logical alternative could be the common vetch: early grower, better than clover as both famine food and animal fodder (early in the season : once the pods ripen they're better saved for cooked consumption).

 

[wietze]

I'm not sure why it hasn't come up ( maybe it has to do with the growth season/climate zone) but a logical alternative could be the common vetch: early grower, better than clover as both famine food and animal fodder (early in the season : once the pods ripen they're better saved for cooked consumption).

did you read the wiki article? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicia_sativa
It states that in larger amounts it is not healthy for livestock.
and considering that in history there was only a fallback to it during famine is probably evidence that it is not a good crop.

 

[colleoni]

did you read the wiki article? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicia_sativa
It states that in larger amounts it is not healthy for livestock.
and considering that in history there was only a fallback to it during famine is probably evidence that it is not a good crop.

Indeed, I have read the Wikipedia page, which reads that the issue with livestock doesn't lie so much in the plant as in the overfeeding + presence of pods.. The latter I considered solved by making a half-hearted harvest of the upper part, with most of the pods, late in the season(bonus: high protein content in the winter feed) . The other.. eh, I'm more used to think of livestock in the <1900 as "has barely enough food" than at risk of overfeeding.

 

[wietze]

The other.. eh, I'm more used to think of livestock in the <1900 as "has barely enough food" than at risk of overfeeding.

i look at it from the view that farmers in the past were no fools, and that they picked the crop that worked best for them. and last regular cultivation was during roman times, there must be a good reason for that.
and overfeeding does not have to be in total daily amounts, but can also be feeding them too long with only 1 crop. (but that is my definition anyways).

The latter I considered solved by making a half-hearted harvest of the upper part, with most of the pods, late in the season(bonus: high protein content in the winter feed)

this would of course make it more difficult to use it as a grazing crop during season, since grazing would reduce the harvest yield

 

[Atterdag]

This was done in Sweden with peas but cloves are more efficient.

 

[Arkenfolm]

Maybe more agroforestry with alders? The catkins are edible to people and animals, it's a good folk medicine (because the bark contains a compound related to aspirin) and the tree is rather hardy and efficiently fixes nitrogen. When cut the tree can be used for wood and processed into charcoal. Have a portion of the land used as forest, maybe mixed alongside oaks (for wood and especially acorns, a great animal feed). That has interesting implications on the development of coal mining if charcoal is more readily available.

i look at it from the view that farmers in the past were no fools, and that they picked the crop that worked best for them.

Farmers are inherently conservative--they tend to go with what works best or else they risk economic ruin and potentially starvation. That doesn't mean they always picked the best option as evidenced by much of Scandinavia during the Little Ice Age when perhaps they might've sought out and domesticated some new plant to supplement their declining yields yet did not.

 

[wietze]

Farmers are inherently conservative--they tend to go with what works best or else they risk economic ruin and potentially starvation.

although on the other hand when they get the idea that something new will bring them more yield/ money, they are surprising fast to change.

and i thought of another reason why clover would be preferred. as i already said it could be grazed on most of the growing season, while the harvest crops cannot. the crop only option is actually not an option in the old days, it is always a mixed operation, simply because you need a horse or a oxen to pull the plow etc. so you would need a grazeable crop to feed them. And maybe harvest timing, 4 harvest crops could overload the workforce during harvest time, since everything is done by hand (crossed my mind, but not sure how bad it would get)