Could Kongos modernize under Portugese influence ?

Well, it's in the title ... the kings adopted Christiandom, could they go further and modernize, not necessarely to a full Renaissance extent, not for now at least, because it depends on their needs. I think it would be kinda interesting to see Kongo interacting with the European Colonies.
 

Lusitania

Donor
the Portuguese and kingdom of Congo fought on three different occasions. If in one of those instead of status quo a partnership was setup where Portuguese provided support, weapons and even established schools (under jesuits) in Congo and Angola.

Let’s saw right after 1640, the Congo provide troops to fight the Dutch even going as far as defeating them and capturing South Africa.

Congo get education, better weapons which allows it to increase its size inland while Portuguese able to recapture some of the Dutch conquests. Including posts in India and south east Asia. Over time they align with Portuguese in scramble for Africa allowing the Portuguese to get their pink map while a large kingdom of Congo lays over the Portuguese lands and part of Portuguese empire in name only and to keep other eeuropeans away.
 
One problem is that Portugal would always want slaves and Kongo would always have trouble accepting this. This is not exactly the type of relatiohsip between countries that can easily evolve into a long-lasting and trusting partnership.
 
One problem is that Portugal would always want slaves and Kongo would always have trouble accepting this. This is not exactly the type of relatiohsip between countries that can easily evolve into a long-lasting and trusting partnership.

Most of slaves were captured by some african tribes into their rival tribes, Kongo would be able to do this as long as they expand, there was no solidarity between africans at this time
 

Lusitania

Donor
Most of slaves were captured by some african tribes into their rival tribes, Kongo would be able to do this as long as they expand, there was no solidarity between africans at this time
Correct, Congo would become the supplier for the Portuguese. This was how the African slavery trade was carried out. The Europeans established posts along the coast and coastal tribes would raid inland and bring the slaves to the Europeans to sell for weapons and that things the Europeans sold.
 
Most of slaves were captured by some african tribes into their rival tribes, Kongo would be able to do this as long as they expand, there was no solidarity between africans at this time

Mostly true, but king Afonso I of Kongo was disturbed by Portugal's practice of slavery in such a large scale, and tried to make it subject to Kongo law, which the Portuguese refused.
 
Mostly true, but king Afonso I of Kongo was disturbed by Portugal's practice of slavery in such a large scale, and tried to make it subject to Kongo law, which the Portuguese refused.

So the problem from King Afonso's point of view was the industrial scale ? Like slaves being a tool and not a luxury or something like this ?
 

Lusitania

Donor
Mostly true, but king Afonso I of Kongo was disturbed by Portugal's practice of slavery in such a large scale, and tried to make it subject to Kongo law, which the Portuguese refused.
Yes that was why the new relationship would of needed to been the result of one of the wars in which the Congolese are defeated but Portuguese spread thin decide to make Congo a vassal state.
 
Yes that was why the new relationship would of needed to been the result of one of the wars in which the Congolese are defeated but Portuguese spread thin decide to make Congo a vassal state.

Or, reversed, Kongos beat Portugese armies like Boers did with England, and earn Portugese respect ? Maybe ?
 

Lusitania

Donor
Or, reversed, Kongos beat Portugese armies like Boers did with England, and earn Portugese respect ? Maybe ?
The defeat has to be nominal that neither country has the distinct advantage due to Portuguese having recently recaptured Angola from Dutch. The Portuguese in desperate need of troops decide to make Congo a ally instead of enemy that requires resources and manpower they not have to enforce. So therefore some sort of compromise is reached regarding development of Congo and slave trade.
 

Lusitania

Donor
As part of the peace treaty the Congolese provide the Portuguese with say few thousands troops that allow the Portuguese to capture South Africa and over next few years reverse the Portuguese War. Peace between Portugal and Netherlands results in South Africa being returned to Dutch but Portuguese keep several of their Indian and East Indies possessions back including Malacca. Congolese troops in India and East Indies help reinforce Portuguese control and defeat both Indian and East Indies countries trying to take advantage of Portuguese weakness.

Congolese demand changes to the peace treaty otherwise their troops will return. An accommodation to the slave trade is made, investment in education including a branch of University of Coimbra in Luanda and move development of Congo and Angola is negotiated.
 
I generally agree with Lusitania's idea. If the circunstances were right and the Kingdom of Kongo seems not to be a threat the Portuguese could be persuaded to make a relatively fair deal with them.

However, Portugual would most likely still take advantage of any possible opportunity to turn the African kingdom into a true puppet, one that is unable to make demands, as it ended up being IOTL.

Royal succession in the Kingdom of Kongo tended to be particularily bloody (with some kind of civil war being almost certain), which means that the Portuguese would always have plenty of chances to intervene.

To keep its alliance with Portugal a true alliance, Kongo would have to sort out its own internal mess.
 
So the problem from King Afonso's point of view was the industrial scale ? Like slaves being a tool and not a luxury or something like this ?

The problem was not so much the "status" of the slaves but the unprecedented scale of Portuguese slave-trading operations, which were far vaster than simply kidnapping some people from nearby villages, as had always happaned in Africa. Afonsos concern, in particular, was that, due to the size of their operations, the traders were becoming impossible to control. While it's true that most of the slaves were africans from rival states/tribe who were captured by the congolese themselves in their wars of expansion, Portuguese traders did not refrain from kidnapping congolese citizins, as well as people from their vassal tribes. Here's an excerpt from one of the letters Afonso wrote to king Manuel of Portugal:

"Each day the traders are kidnapping our people - children of this country, sons of our nobles and vassals, even people of our own family. This corruption and depravity are so widespread that our land is entirely depopulated. We need in this kingdom only priests and schoolteachers, and no merchandise, unless it is wine and flour for Mass. It is our wish that this Kingdom not be a place for the trade or transport of slaves."
Many of our subjects eagerly lust after Portuguese merchandise that your subjects have brought into our domains. To satisfy this inordinate appetite, they seize many of our black free subjects.... They sell them. After having taken these prisoners [to the coast] secretly or at night..... As soon as the captives are in the hands of white men they are branded with a red-hot iron.

Portugal did nothing to solve this issue, and slavery continued to be a source of dispute between Portugal and Kongo until the later was finally forced to completely submit to the former.

That's why I agree with Lusitania's assertion that both countries need to be in a relatively precarious position (Kongo defeated and Portugal stretched thing) so that they become forced to make significant concessions to each other. If this doesn't happen, there simply isn't sufficient alignment of interests for a true alliance to be maintained in the long run.
 
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