Could KMS Der Fuhrer survive a nuclear attack?

Does Der Fuhrer live?

  • Absolutely. "Tis but a scratch"

    Votes: 5 11.6%
  • Barely. Still floating with a huge hole in the middle.

    Votes: 9 20.9%
  • No. Glug Glug Glug...

    Votes: 29 67.4%

  • Total voters
    43
So I was just reading this thread: https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/der-fuhrer-battleship-converted-to-carrier.277260/ , about a proposed nearly-a-megaton battleship that carries Gustavs as its main armament, and has enough armour to shake off a 20" shell, a regular air-dropped bomb or a torpedo with no trouble.

So, assuming Germany somehow wins WW2 and builds this by the end of 1945, then the USN sails out to try to kill it, could it survive a strike of a single Hiroshima-level nuke? As in, if no other stuff comes to attack it, could it make it back to port to be repaired? That includes enough crew and engines surviving to get it back to some enlarged French or German port.

- BNC
 
Nah.

Nukemap says that Little Boy would generate a 180 m radius fireball and excavate a 30 m deep crater. While steel isn't earth, clearly an contact/near miss airburst would pulverise a huge chunk of ship. The blast would remove the rest of the superstructure and cause enough structural damage to allow uncontrolled progressive flooding, even if it doesn't just cause the thing to break in half.

Beyond that, the entire crew is dead from radiation poisoning in a day or two.
 
Based upon Able test during Operation Crossroad a near-miss (400-900 m off target) low altitude airburst (around 150m altitude) will severely damage but not quickly sink a pre-WW2 Battleship. However, fatalities and disabling injuries from the air blast and radiation would put the majority of the crew out of action making getting the ship back to port very difficult and raising a high likelihood of relatively minor flooding from burst seams, busted rivets etc. going uncontrolled and eventually sinking the ship.
 
As this ship is not likely to be in service before the 60s then please take into account that the most powerful weapon ever deployed was tested in 1961

What?...No..No not the militant wing of the Salvation Army

No this......
 
If they actually manage to hit the damned thing, they'll kill it. But they probably won't hit it, not dead on, not in 1945. Whether it survives that near-miss depends on how near we're talking about. But the Fat Man was never intended for an anti-ship role, and I'm not optimistic.
 
An underwater detonation will capsize it or lift it 50 feet into the air,when it comes down the entire crew is red jelly.
 
So I was just reading this thread: https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/der-fuhrer-battleship-converted-to-carrier.277260/ , about a proposed nearly-a-megaton battleship that carries Gustavs as its main armament, and has enough armour to shake off a 20" shell, a regular air-dropped bomb or a torpedo with no trouble.

So, assuming Germany somehow wins WW2 and builds this by the end of 1945, then the USN sails out to try to kill it, could it survive a strike of a single Hiroshima-level nuke? As in, if no other stuff comes to attack it, could it make it back to port to be repaired? That includes enough crew and engines surviving to get it back to some enlarged French or German port.

- BNC
If it can crawl to port at 4 knots with a tenth of its crew without being attack it can probably make it back to port to be repaired.
 
What about Zipang?
She would never be built, but if would be interesting to know.
Despite her massive size, she would have only have had a 16' belt
 
Most of the A-Bomb survivors from Bikini were scuttled due to contamination. Would have had to chip and sandblast all the paint and replace all the wood decking.

Easier to open the seacocks.

Now a fighting ship of WWII vintage wouldn't have the washdown capability the Coldwar era USN ships had, so the KM crews that didn't get zapped by the initial X-Ray/Gamma/Neutron pulse would slowly be poisoned by the ships surface, and they have no clue that they even need a NBC suit to go ondeck
 

CalBear

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Define survive.

Not sink immediately? Sure, depending on how close the detonation is, whether it is an airburst or surface detonation, orientation of the vessel to the blast (stern or bow on, broadside), etc. It could limp back to port, with much of its crew dead or doomed, sensors shredded, and most of its weapons knocked off kilter if the detonation is more than 250 meters away and the port is less than 36 hours sailing.

At Crossroads USS Nevada was 600 meters from the IP (it was actually supposed to be the target, but y'all know them flyboys :p). As was the case with most of the ships, Nevada had a number of test animals, mostly goats, embarked to gauge effects. At 600 meters distance, a goat that was inside a main turret died four days after the detonation. At half a mile from the detonation the ship was hit with 10,000 Rems (100Sv) of radiation. Ten sieverts (10 Sv) is 100% fatal within weeks. Even with the huge size of the preposterous ship being discussed anyone within 40 meters of the hull facing the blast would get a triple lethal dose, although crew under cover, on the far side of the ship from the blast would likely receive a dose that would not be fatal for a few months.

Inside of 200 meters or 250 meters and broadside? Very unlikely to have anyone survive more than a couple days, even well inboard. Gun turrets, hatches, etc. are likely to spotweld. Inside 125 meters? Forget about it, heat pulse will exceed 3,000 degree, paint, even any aluminum will burn, ammunition will cook off and the shock wave is likely to either capsize the ship or break it in half.

Direct hit? Around 90 meters in all directions from the detonation of the hull literally disappears. Between shock and heat pulse chances are no one aboard even has time to reaize they are going to die.
 
At Crossroads USS Nevada was 600 meters from the IP (it was actually supposed to be the target, but y'all know them flyboys :p). As was the case with most of the ships, Nevada had a number of test animals, mostly goats, embarked to gauge effects. At 600 meters distance, a goat that was inside a main turret died four days after the detonation. At half a mile from the detonation the ship was hit with 10,000 Rems (100Sv) of radiation. Ten sieverts (10 Sv) is 100% fatal within weeks. Even with the huge size of the preposterous ship being discussed anyone within 40 meters of the hull facing the blast would get a triple lethal dose, although crew under cover, on the far side of the ship from the blast would likely receive a dose that would not be fatal for a few months.

The question I see is, could they actually get the bomb within 600 meters of the ship? They missed the Nevada by that much and it was literally just a sitting target, no flak, no maneuvers, nothing. No question that they can cripple or kill this thing if they get the bomb close enough, but can they?

Which is an honest question, because WW2-era aviation is not something I really know anything about. I'm inclined to be skeptical, though.
 
The question I see is, could they actually get the bomb within 600 meters of the ship? They missed the Nevada by that much and it was literally just a sitting target, no flak, no maneuvers, nothing. No question that they can cripple or kill this thing if they get the bomb close enough, but can they?

Which is an honest question, because WW2-era aviation is not something I really know anything about. I'm inclined to be skeptical, though.
Also relevant is the fact that the bomb had to be dropped from maximum height in order to allow the bomber crew to survive.

The higher you are the harder it is to aim.

I'm assuming they get within one km with my guess above.

Standard flak has no effect on high altitude bombers. Maneuver doesn't really matter when you are trying to get within 1km of target.
 

CalBear

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The question I see is, could they actually get the bomb within 600 meters of the ship? They missed the Nevada by that much and it was literally just a sitting target, no flak, no maneuvers, nothing. No question that they can cripple or kill this thing if they get the bomb close enough, but can they?

Which is an honest question, because WW2-era aviation is not something I really know anything about. I'm inclined to be skeptical, though.
A lot depends on the circumstances, the bomber crew, the weather, etc. The could miss by a mile (literally, Fat Man missed the aiming point by almost two miles due to weather, Little Boy, dropped in better conditions, missed the aiming point by 243 meters, mostly because of the drogue parachute causing minor drift) or make a direct/near direct hit. Even a mile away the crew is going to catch 80 Sv, that simply means they die in 7-10 days instead of 2-4.

The difference here is that the U.S. can make multiple runs at the ship if it so desires since the number of available weapons is now in the double digits.

Since we are talking about a ship that is 609 meters (2000 feet) long if you miss the aiming point by 300 meters you still get a direct hit.

BTW: The design in question was so far beyond idiotic that it makes the H-44 class (which was itself pretty f'in stupid) seem reasonable. There isn't enough SHP in Christendom to get a 700,000 ton warship into the double digits without, at the minimum, several nuclear reactors. This thing is double the length and SEVEN TIMES the displacement of a Nimitz class CVN and 25% longer and 100,000 tons heavier than the largest ULCC ever built (and it capped out at 16 knots)
 
The difference here is that the U.S. can make multiple runs at the ship if it so desires since the number of available weapons is now in the double digits.

While true, it seems hard to put together circumstances under which it would be worth expending multiple atomic bombs - which are still a very limited resource - on a single vessel, even one that big. Of course, the whole scenario is pretty contrived.

BTW: The design in question was so far beyond idiotic that it makes the H-44 class (which was itself pretty f'in stupid) seem reasonable. There isn't enough SHP in Christendom to get a 700,000 ton warship into the double digits without, at the minimum, several nuclear reactors. This thing is double the length and SEVEN TIMES the displacement of a Nimitz class CVN and 25% longer and 100,000 tons heavier than the largest ULCC ever built (and it capped out at 16 knots)

Yeah, but that's part of the fun. :D

Kinda reminds me of this.
 
Could the ship survive? Conceivably. Would it be useful ever again, even as scrap metal? Doubtful. The Navy attempted to decontaminate the ships that survived the Bikini atoll tests, and found that they couldn't remove the radiation contamination.
 
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