Could JAL 123 and UA 232 been saved?

Being in the air longer just meant that they crashed on a mountain in the middle of nowhere late in the day. Unsurprisingly, many survivors ended up dying of exposure and crash-related injuries before anyone reached the crash site. An earlier crash, in this case, could very well turn out better if it means that the survivors are in a more accessible location.
Now I've heard everything. Of course they kept it in the air, they were trying to make it back to Haneda, in the knowledge that the airport could actually deal with such a landing.

Also, there were only four or so attempts at simulating the flight, according to Wikipedia, which isn't much of a sample size to be drawing conclusions from.
So they ran the scenarios with B-grade crews then?

First the crew is criticised for maybe not wearing oxygen masks, and now for keeping the thing in the air too long? Is there something in the water in some places that causes people to try to degrade heroic actions and attack people when they're too dead to fight back?
 
Now I've heard everything. Of course they kept it in the air, they were trying to make it back to Haneda, in the knowledge that the airport could actually deal with such a landing.
Yes, they were trying, but that was impossible given the completely degraded controls and lack of training to deal with a non-functional hydraulics system. They never even got the plane pointed back at Haneda for more than a brief period. The ultimate outcome was a crash survived by, apparently, many of the passengers, who subsequently died due to exposure and the effects of their injuries.

It hardly seems controversial to point out that if they had crashed closer to a roadway like one of the ones they must have passed over en route to the actual crash site, at least some of the people who died thanks to causes other than the actual crash might have lived. If they had crashed earlier in the day so that JSDF rescue forces could reach the scene before nightfall, then some of the people who died thanks to causes other than the actual crash might have lived. If they had crashed at a lower, warmer elevation, then some of the people who died thanks to the crash might have lived. And all of this leads to the conclusion that an earlier crash would, in fact, have been better than trying to keep the plane in the air at all costs.

So they ran the scenarios with B-grade crews then?
No, they ran them with four or so. Statistically, this isn't much of a sample, B- or A-.

First the crew is criticised for maybe not wearing oxygen masks, and now for keeping the thing in the air too long? Is there something in the water in some places that causes people to try to degrade heroic actions and attack people when they're too dead to fight back?
They were obviously great pilots, I'm just suggesting that this might, in this particular circumstance, have been counterproductive. There are plenty of accidents where trying to stay in the air is counterproductive--for instance, US Airways 1549, where the water landing was clearly very preferable to trying to stay in the air to make it back to LaGuardia--how is it an "attack" to point out that this looks very much like one of them? Of course pilots are trained to try to stay in the air, but that's not always the best course of action, even if it means a crash.
 
UA 232 is considered a prime example of successful Crew Resource Management?

And the NTSB considered the scenario to have so many factors that it was effectively un-trainable, and that under the circumstances a safe landing was virtually impossible. (Most of the simulator crews did not even make it as far as Sioux Gateway, never mind a controlled landing)

Could it have been saved, it was a miracle it was not worse.
 
Well if they hadn't got the phugoid just before touchdown things would have been a lot better.

Yeah, true dat, if this had been butterflied, Dennis Fitch won't be emoting that much on the Air Crash episode, he would be a lot happier. And the world would be happier in turn.

Most of all we would have 111 more heartbeats on earth by the present :(
 
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JAL 123 it was a miracle that they kept it up in the air long as they did lot alone having even one person survive the crash let alone the 4 that did.(sadly there's evidence that even more survived initially but died waiting for rescue.)

UA 232 on the other hand needs them to have 5 more damn seconds and the plane touches the ground safely.
 
JAL 123 it was a miracle that they kept it up in the air long as they did lot alone having even one person survive the crash let alone the 4 that did.(sadly there's evidence that even more survived initially but died waiting for rescue.)

UA 232 on the other hand needs them to have 5 more damn seconds and the plane touches the ground safely.

I re-watched the Air Crash episode about JAL 123 again and read the Wikipedia article on the disaster and man I was so disappointed by the fact that a rescue helicopter from the US Air Force had arrived on the scene only to be recalled by the hierarchical JSDF :mad: . Perhaps if the order came that they must rescue everyone immediately either by the JSDF's own initiative or an interference with the radio signal, perhaps around 50 people would be alive instead of just four.

For UA 232, that is very, very true :( They were so close to landing safely :(
 
I re-watched the Air Crash episode about JAL 123 again and read the Wikipedia article on the disaster and man I was so disappointed by the fact that a rescue helicopter from the US Air Force had arrived on the scene only to be recalled by the hierarchical JSDF :mad: . Perhaps if the order came that they must rescue everyone immediately either by the JSDF's own initiative or an interference with the radio signal, perhaps around 50 people would be alive instead of just four.

For UA 232, that is very, very true :( They were so close to landing safely :(
Was the JDSF stand-down order based on the shitty excuse of "It is a Japanese problem, so only us can deal with this problem. No help needed."?

:mad:

If it was; well..... I hope someone can say that the JSDF has around 520 people's blood on their hands, since Japan Airlines and the JSDF never apologized for their shitty, botched handling of the rescue op (JSDF) and the even shittier repair of the rear-pressure bulkhead on the plane (JAL).
 
Was the JDSF stand-down order based on the shitty excuse of "It is a Japanese problem, so only us can deal with this problem. No help needed."?

:mad:

If it was; well..... I hope someone can say that the JSDF has around 520 people's blood on their hands, since Japan Airlines and the JSDF never apologized for their shitty, botched handling of the rescue op (JSDF) and the even shittier repair of the rear-pressure bulkhead on the plane (JAL).

Regardless of any justification, they still have 520 people's blood on their hands, even if unintentionally, right at the moment they ordered that US helicopter to stand down.

But yes, the reason you stated was really cited, as according to the Air Crash episode infighting between the various rescue groups was the most likely factor, which also led to them shooing the US soldiers :mad:
 
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Regardless of any justification, they still have 520 people's blood on their hands, even if unintentionally, right at the moment they ordered that US helicopter to stand down.

But yes, the reason you stated was really cited, as according to the Air Crash episode infighting between the various rescue groups was the most likely factor, which also led to them shooing the US soldiers :mad:
Depressing, isn't it?

It makes me feel angry on seeing the scale the fuckup the JSDF did with JAL 123, because somehow saving 'honor' is more important than saving human lives in a unavoidable crash. It also said that the JSDF reported no survivors, so they set up camp for the night 63 KILOMETERS from the crash site and only sent out rescuers the next morning, when only 4 people were alive.

Doctors has also found that many passengers could have been saved, because injuries found on the deceased could have been treated. Also one of the survivors said the pain and screams of the passengers who initially survived died out as the night went on. It was a miracle they held on that long. (And imagine the god knows how long counselling sessions to remove the memories of the night of August 12/13, 1985)

So, I guess the only way JAL 123 has more survivors is that it crashes near or on a flat plain luckily, or somehow the US Air Force pretty much ignores the order from the JSDF to stand down and goes into Mount Osutaka by themselves.

I'd like to see the latter one as a timeline.
 
Propulsion Controlled Aircraft is an add-on to an airplane's autopilot and some changes to the airplane's computer code that allows the airplane to be controlled by power alone. A 1995 test with an MD-11 brought it down to a succesful landing.

By the way, the rear bulkhead of JAL 123 was incorrectly repaired by Boeing employees. According to the Wiki the JAL maintenance manager commited suicide in apology.
 
IIRC, the reason UA232 flubbed the landing is that the crew attempted to slow their rate of descent by increasing engine thrust on approach. The right engine was slower to respond than the left, causing the right wing to dip and strike the runway.
 
IIRC, the reason UA232 flubbed the landing is that the crew attempted to slow their rate of descent by increasing engine thrust on approach. The right engine was slower to respond than the left, causing the right wing to dip and strike the runway.

That how they counteracted the phugoid's and if the right engine spooled up just as fast as the left they would've been ok.
 
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