Could JAL 123 and UA 232 been saved?

JAL 123 was on climb mode, while UA 232 was turning right when they lost their hydraulics. What if all of them were at points where they are at their cruising altitudes and on a straight path, like the DHL Plane in 2003? Could they have landed safely?

And what would the survival of these planes mean for the airline industry as a whole?
 
JAL 123 lost the vertical stabilizer entirely when the decompression occurred. It's an amazing feat of pilotibg they kept her in the air as long as they did; IIRC no flight crew could even come close to equalling their time in the simulator trials.
 
Then you're asking the impossible, at this point pilots were never trained for complete loss of hydraulic controls, and it was thus only through incredible skill that they got anyone down alive. What did a lot of damage was the phugoid and veering right on the final approach, which was unexpected and occurred too late for the pilots to correct it before they hit the ground.

Almost certainly the 2003 crash would have been fatal.
 
JAL 123 might have turned out better had the flight crew remembered to put on their oxygen masks. As it was, the effects of hypoxia meant they spent most of the flight letting the plane take them further into the mountains with only token attempts to regain control.
 
Looked at the map and saw that Mt. Takamagahara was near some neat population centers, Kawakami to its WSW and direct S, and Chichibu to the West. I was thinking, had they crash-landed on some smooth valley (without houses) much nearer to these areas, I think a large number of passengers would have survived in JAL 123. Or the Kirigamine highland to the West (if they're not in a phugoid cycle which for a brief moment was true). Or a country road is located very near to the crash site. Agree that the masks may have saved a lot more people.
 
JAL 123 might have turned out better had the flight crew remembered to put on their oxygen masks. As it was, the effects of hypoxia meant they spent most of the flight letting the plane take them further into the mountains with only token attempts to regain control.
And we know the oxygen masks came down how?
 
Because of the surviving passengers' testimony. And the flight crew's masks don't drop down automatically like those in the passenger cabin.
Ah, so the flight crew should take time off from the very important business of flying the plane to bother with oxygen masks, which in fact proved not to be needed because they soon descended to a level where there was sufficient pressure to breath without masks?
 
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Ah, so the flight crew should take time off from the very important business of flying the plane to bother with oxygen masks, which in fact proved not to be needed because they soon descended to a level where there was sufficient pressure to breath without masks?

Putting it, as I've seen from many Air Crash Investigation shows only took seconds. Perhaps it would not affect their efforts in controlling the plane.
 
Ah, so the flight crew should take time off from the very important business of flying the plane to bother with oxygen masks, which in fact proved not to be needed because they soon descended to a level where there was sufficient pressure to breath without masks?

Getting on oxygen immediately is standard procedure for any decompression scenario. Hypoxia is very insidious in that the effects of impairment due to oxygen deprivation are very hard to judge by one who is affected by it. A quick donning crew mask can be put on in a couple of seconds using one hand.
 
Getting on oxygen immediately is standard procedure for any decompression scenario. Hypoxia is very insidious in that the effects of impairment due to oxygen deprivation are very hard to judge by one who is affected by it. A quick donning crew mask can be put on in a couple of seconds using one hand.

This. The JAL crew did not follow that procedure.
 
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trurle

Banned
This. The JAL crew did not follow that procedure.

I think the talks of hypoxia are irrelevant. The simulator re-enactments of the crash have failed to produce better flight time to crash compared to what actually happened. And simulator is running at sea level pressure.

Actually, for some reasons UA232 pilot was able to nearly suppress phugoid cycle while JA123 was unable. Most likely, the pitch momentum of the 747 with all control surfaces on zero was too large for engine throttle to keep pace with it. Smaller phugoid cycle period = unability to control.

May be a silly idea..reducing pitch torque by moving passengers more to nose first.

Next, organize most physically fit passengers in rows in aisles, and make them run on command to nose or tail if pitch control is needed. Make them change aisle if roll control is needed. Control yaw with differential throttle.
It should work..what makes control is the distance between centre of mass and centre of pressure. If centre of pressure cannot be controlled, only one option remains - controlling the centre of mass.

Example:
-group A, switch to left aisle!
-5 seats back! No, 10 seats back!
-3 seats forward, steady, steady..

Also, some trimming may be achieved by using fuel pumps. Not enough for positive control, but at least reduce the pitch torque. I do not know though if it was possible with the fuel pumps configuration of 747.

Of course, it was impossible to even think for Japanese pilots. Delegation of control to passengers..unthinkable.:(
 
This. The JAL crew did not follow that procedure.
Yeah, and I'm fairly sure that "holy sh*t the f*cking tail just came off" probably accounted for some of that.

Also, as mentioned crews in simulators didn't manage the same 'success' as the crew on the day, so presumably Hypoxia wasn't a major factor.
 
Yeah, and I'm fairly sure that "holy sh*t the f*cking tail just came off" probably accounted for some of that.

Also, as mentioned crews in simulators didn't manage the same 'success' as the crew on the day, so presumably Hypoxia wasn't a major factor.

So we have all come to the conclusion that the JAL 123 crash was inevitable once it occurred, only people reaching the crash site faster would be the only possible way to save more people (according to Ms. Yumi Ochiai more people survived the crash only to die overnight of their injuries and the cold).

So yes, I agree UA 232 very nearly landed safely so with enough butterflies, they may have landed safely... but wait...

As I remember from that Seconds from Disaster episode about UA 232, the crew and the narrator said that UA 232 landed on the wrong runway (a short one so to speak)...
 
Ah, so the flight crew should take time off from the very important business of flying the plane to bother with oxygen masks, which in fact proved not to be needed because they soon descended to a level where there was sufficient pressure to breath without masks?

You're right, taking the time to put on an oxygen mask when the plane is losing pressure is just too hard. Good thing the flight crew of Helios Airways Flight 522 followed that advice!:rolleyes:
 
So yes, I agree UA 232 very nearly landed safely so with enough butterflies, they may have landed safely... but wait...

As I remember from that Seconds from Disaster episode about UA 232, the crew and the narrator said that UA 232 landed on the wrong runway (a short one so to speak)...
Credit where it's due, they actually managed to come down on a runway. Also, it was the phugoid that killed them, not the bad choice of the runway.

You're right, taking the time to put on an oxygen mask when the plane is losing pressure is just too hard. Good thing the flight crew of Helios Airways Flight 522 followed that advice!:rolleyes:
Maybe you missed that the actual JAL flight in question was in the air longer than anything anyone else managed in a simulator.
 
Maybe you missed that the actual JAL flight in question was in the air longer than anything anyone else managed in a simulator.

Being in the air longer just meant that they crashed on a mountain in the middle of nowhere late in the day. Unsurprisingly, many survivors ended up dying of exposure and crash-related injuries before anyone reached the crash site. An earlier crash, in this case, could very well turn out better if it means that the survivors are in a more accessible location.

Also, there were only four or so attempts at simulating the flight, according to Wikipedia, which isn't much of a sample size to be drawing conclusions from.
 
I think the talks of hypoxia are irrelevant. The simulator re-enactments of the crash have failed to produce better flight time to crash compared to what actually happened. And simulator is running at sea level pressure.

Actually, for some reasons UA232 pilot was able to nearly suppress phugoid cycle while JA123 was unable. Most likely, the pitch momentum of the 747 with all control surfaces on zero was too large for engine throttle to keep pace with it. Smaller phugoid cycle period = unability to control.

May be a silly idea..reducing pitch torque by moving passengers more to nose first.

Next, organize most physically fit passengers in rows in aisles, and make them run on command to nose or tail if pitch control is needed. Make them change aisle if roll control is needed. Control yaw with differential throttle.
It should work..what makes control is the distance between centre of mass and centre of pressure. If centre of pressure cannot be controlled, only one option remains - controlling the centre of mass.

Example:
-group A, switch to left aisle!
-5 seats back! No, 10 seats back!
-3 seats forward, steady, steady..

Also, some trimming may be achieved by using fuel pumps. Not enough for positive control, but at least reduce the pitch torque. I do not know though if it was possible with the fuel pumps configuration of 747.

Of course, it was impossible to even think for Japanese pilots. Delegation of control to passengers..unthinkable.:(

I would think the better airworthiness of UA 232 (uncontained engine 3 failure) was due to the fact that the control surfaces were more or less intact compared to JAL 123 (tail bulkhead failure) which at least lost the vertical stabilizer and may have had additional damage to the horizontal stabilizers.

The passenger idea is certainly creative but it seems hard to account for enough mass to affect flight characteristics. Even if you had 50 passengers at an average of 70 kg that is only 3500 kg to effect an aeroplane with probably 300000 kg mass. Would make for an awesome TV special though if you could pull it off!

Being in the air longer just meant that they crashed on a mountain in the middle of nowhere late in the day. Unsurprisingly, many survivors ended up dying of exposure and crash-related injuries before anyone reached the crash site. An earlier crash, in this case, could very well turn out better if it means that the survivors are in a more accessible location.

Also, there were only four or so attempts at simulating the flight, according to Wikipedia, which isn't much of a sample size to be drawing conclusions from.

Well, it's better than THY 981 which had a similar tail bulkhead explosive decompression and was lost with no survivors. Granted, they also lost partial engine control so the craft was even less controllable.

If anyone should be blamed its not the flight crew; there is a longstanding controversy over the delay in rescue. USAF rescue crews were reportedly told to stand down and the JDSF didn't reach the crash site until the following morning. The surviving flight attendant does report hearing helicopters well before the eventual arrival so there is probably some truth to the claims.
 
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