Could Islam have been wiped out in the middle-ages?

I do not believe Muhammad created any centres for science, if so, it has eluded me. Also, it is perhaps not wise or correct to shame the inhabitants of Arabia before Islam to be termed desolate.

No, not Mohammed himself, but the Islamic Golden age of science, in the house of Baghdad, and the Islamic Golden age of science.
 
What would a remnant Islamic group (or few) likely evolve into in the event mainstream OTL Islamic sects / traditional schools were wiped out, using the various OTL less influential / heretical Islamic or syncretic / semi-Islamic sects and schools as a rough guide?
 

Brunaburh

Gone Fishin'
What would a remnant Islamic group (or few) likely evolve into in the event mainstream OTL Islamic sects / traditional schools were wiped out, using the various OTL less influential / heretical Islamic or syncretic / semi-Islamic sects and schools as a rough guide?

I don't think we are talking wipeout, but evolution and adoption driven by a self-questioning about why Allah allowed Christian supremacy, and what Muslims were doing wrong. The events that we might see in insanely-successful-Christian-attacks-on-Islam-world are:

1. An irruption of Mahdis, prophets and suddenly unhidden imams.
2. Adoption from Christianity. Some may attempt to combine Mohammed's revelation with the idea of a divine or semi-divine Isa, others may adopt Marian devotion, some may adopt Christian beliefs on expiation of sin, for example confession (we see this in OTL Shabaks).
3. Participation in Christian rituals, we saw this in OTL mixed areas of the Ottoman empire. Where Muslims and Christians lived side by side we might see more individuals who adopted an intermediate identity.
4. Pre-Islamic syncretism. If you leave a sufi school in the middle of nowhere with local tribespeople you could wind up with more things like the Yazidis popping up.
5. Innovation on what could replace aspects of Islam which were now impossible, a massive wave of innovation and reinterpretation.
 
I don't think we are talking wipeout, but evolution and adoption driven by a self-questioning about why Allah allowed Christian supremacy, and what Muslims were doing wrong. The events that we might see in insanely-successful-Christian-attacks-on-Islam-world are:

1. An irruption of Mahdis, prophets and suddenly unhidden imams.
2. Adoption from Christianity. Some may attempt to combine Mohammed's revelation with the idea of a divine or semi-divine Isa, others may adopt Marian devotion, some may adopt Christian beliefs on expiation of sin, for example confession (we see this in OTL Shabaks).
3. Participation in Christian rituals, we saw this in OTL mixed areas of the Ottoman empire. Where Muslims and Christians lived side by side we might see more individuals who adopted an intermediate identity.
4. Pre-Islamic syncretism. If you leave a sufi school in the middle of nowhere with local tribespeople you could wind up with more things like the Yazidis popping up.
5. Innovation on what could replace aspects of Islam which were now impossible, a massive wave of innovation and reinterpretation.

It might be the case there would be an Islamic equivalent of the New Testament / Mani or early Post-Islamic analogues to Babism / Baha'i in such a scenario.

Perhaps one interesting Post-Sunni version of Islam would be best described as Post-Exilic (albeit not in the literal sense rather the triumphalist sense given the TL) Neo-Murjite Quranist / Mutazilite, possibly adopting some Shia / Sufi / etc influenced views along the way as well as embracing some limited degree of syncretism (largely Greco-Roman / Hellenistic, possible adoption of Latin / Greek script for Arabic or Arabic-derived diaspora languages / dialects, Judas/Brutus-like figures among the companions, etc) though never reaching the stage of becoming proto-Chrislamic.

Not sure how the following would work. Though another interesting ATL dominant group that would claim to be a form of Islam would be a heavily syncretic Post-Shia/Sufi sect influenced by a combination of elements from Muhammerah (Mazdaki), Qarmatian (Zoroastrian), Zindiq (Manichean), Satpanth (Hindu), Yazdânism, Barghawata, Shabaksim, Druze, Alawite, Alevi and Din-i Ilahi thought (along with other sects / schools that have not yet been mentioned).

It is also likely there would be Christian (or general non-Muslim) government censorship of Islamic texts / verses or at times outright bans of certain works (performed mainly by Muslim apostates), with Islamic religious authorities themselves practicing self-censorship out of fear of public reaction.
 
Last edited:
With regards to language displacement as a result of European settlement / colonialism in the Maghreb in such a scenario (possibly via an ATL Kingdom of Africa), it would be interesting to see a significant number of Europeans originating from Northern Italy as well as from Arpitan areas, basically having less common or ATL Western Romance languages dominate the region (such as Arpitan, Gallo-Italic or some ATL Occitano-Italic / Occitalic or Arpitan-Italic / Arpitalic branches) as opposed to having much of the Maghreb simply end up being dominated by Spanish, French or Italian.
 
Last edited:
How did we get into an extensive conversation when really three detailed posts on page 1 and a bunch of simple "nos" (the plural of no) was said?
 

Teejay

Gone Fishin'
A Byzantine victory at Manzikert could be a good POD, if that occurred. The Byzantine empire would have reconquered the whole Levant. While the first crusade would have not occurred, the focus would be on the Iberian Peninsula and Tunisia.

In the Iberian Peninsula The battle of Sagrajas in 1086 would have been a Castilian and Aragonese victory instead of an Almoravid one in OTL. Therefore; a real Spanish Empire emerge with Alfonso VI of Castile and León being emperor and ruling quite a lot of it. A nearly united Iberian peninsula would focus it's energies on reconquering Morocco and Algeria for Christendom.

At the same time the Normans conqueror Tunisia and it gets annexed into the Kingdom of Sicily. Also you can some Norman adventurer's conqueror the Fatimid Caliphate of Egypt.

With the forces of Christendom controlling the whole of the Islamic world west of the Euphrates that is going to weak Islam quite a lot. Come the time of the Mongol invasions, the Ilkhanate, Golden Horde, and the Chagatai could convert to Christianity (probably the Nestorian form) instead of Islam.

That sort of TL result in Catholicism being the dominant religion in North Africa, Coptic Christianity in Egypt, Orthodox Christianity in the Levant and Nestorian Christianity eventually in Persia and Central Asia. While Islam would not be wiped out as a religion, it would be very marginalised.

Some revised thoughts, I do believe even with a Byzantine victory at Manzikert the crusades would have been launched. However it would be purely with the intent of "liberating" the holy land for Christendom. These Crusader states would eventually probably end up being Byzantine vassal states and later on absorbed into the Empire.

In the long run the Mediterranean region would be dominated by Catholic or Orthodox Christianity. However east of that while Nestorian Christianity would be prominent. However some syncretic religions diverting from particularly Shia Islam (similar to the OTL Alwaites and Alevis) would have a significant presence as well.

In OTL Kurdisan religions such as Yezidism and Yarsanism could become dominant.

The Indian subcontinent would in the long run be overwhelming Hindu, although these syncretic forms of Shia Islam I mentioned above could be absorbed into Hinduism.

Lord knows what would occur in Indonesia and Malaysia, they might have never converted in a major way to Islam and would have become Buddhism like Thailand, Cambodia, Laos and Vietnam did.
 
Top