Could Hitler Of Won The War If...

SeaPony

Banned
After invading France he then went ahead with operation sea lion and invaded Britain while at the same time sabotaging any attempts by the Americans to create the atom bomb while recruiting scientists to create the ultimate weapon.

Then in 1942 invade the soviet union waiting a year to re group and re supply and use the hatred of Moscow to their advantage by recruiting Ukrainian's to fight alongside them to then take Moscow quickly with the co operation with Japan fighting in the eastern front. After taking the USSR then provide independence for the Ukrainians by installing a puppet government to make it seem like they have independence and by that time the first atom bomb has been tested.

Pearl harbour is conducted with the co operation with German forces to destroy the pacific fleet then drop an atomic bomb on new york, if they don't surrender then on Boston then on Chicago and so on until they gave in.

Is this a realistic way of how Germany could have a achieved world domination (apart from Japan)?
 
After invading France he then went ahead with operation sea lion and invaded Britain

A successful Sealion during any recognisable WW2 is impossible. Not difficult, not one in a million, impossible.

while at the same time sabotaging any attempts by the Americans to create the atom bomb while recruiting scientists to create the ultimate weapon.

Hitler couldn't have created the atomic bomb because there were too many non Nazis involved in its creation. Nazi science was far too politicised to get even close to the theoretical concepts involved.

Then in 1942 invade the soviet union waiting a year to re group and re supply

Stalin wasn't stupid. He knew the Nazis were coming, he just thought he had more time. He was planning for 1942. That would've played right into his hands.

and use the hatred of Moscow to their advantage by recruiting Ukrainian's to fight alongside them to then take Moscow quickly with the co operation with Japan fighting in the eastern front. After taking the USSR then provide independence for the Ukrainians by installing a puppet government to make it seem like they have independence

Hitler using Slavic allies to fight Stalin is out of the question. He just wouldn't do it. His mentality was that of a psycho pokemon trainer. "Got to kill them all"

and by that time the first atom bomb has been tested. Pearl harbour is conducted with the co operation with German forces to destroy the pacific fleet then drop an atomic bomb on new york, if they don't surrender then on Boston then on Chicago and so on until they gave in.

Is this a realistic way of how Germany could have a achieved world domination (apart from Japan)?

See above.

So no. No to every single proposition. Just no. Sorry.
 

SeaPony

Banned
A successful Sealion during any recognisable WW2 is impossible. Not difficult, not one in a million, impossible.



Hitler couldn't have created the atomic bomb because there were too many non Nazis involved in its creation. Nazi science was far too politicised to get even close to the theoretical concepts involved.



Stalin wasn't stupid. He knew the Nazis were coming, he just thought he had more time. He was planning for 1942. That would've played right into his hands.



Hitler using Slavic allies to fight Stalin is out of the question. He just wouldn't do it. His mentality was that of a psycho pokemon trainer. "Got to kill them all"



See above.

So no. No to every single proposition. Just no. Sorry.

This is an alternate reality where Hitler was more strategic than ideological. He should of paid more attention to what the Americans were doing developing the atomic bomb and should of sent spies to sabotage the development of them.

This is an alternate reality where Hitler is more strategic. Strategy comes before ideology.
 
This is an alternate reality where Hitler was more strategic than ideological. He should of paid more attention to what the Americans were doing developing the atomic bomb and should of sent spies to sabotage the development of them.

This is an alternate reality where Hitler is more strategic. Strategy comes before ideology.

You are Gudestein and I claim my five pounds.
 

SeaPony

Banned
I see that you're new here. I recommend the guide to Sealion threads youl'll find near the top of this page as a starting point.

It is not impossible if Hitler concentrated all of his attention into finishing off Britain before he invaded the soviet union and finished bombing the RAF.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
This is an alternate reality where Hitler was more strategic than ideological. He should of paid more attention to what the Americans were doing developing the atomic bomb and should of sent spies to sabotage the development of them.

This is an alternate reality where Hitler is more strategic. Strategy comes before ideology.
This is what we politely term "handwaving".

You seem to have a very unusual view of what happened in WW2 - among other things, you seem to have the idea that Hitler knew about the US atomic bomb project.
The whole German science establishment felt a Bomb impossible.


Anyway. There's a LOT of words expended on Sealion on this forum, but the main impediment can be summed up like this.

In 1940, the Royal Navy was the most powerful navy in the world. It had roughly a dozen battleships with several more building, three battlecruisers, several aircraft carriers with more building, scads of cruisers, shedloads of destroyers and absolutely hundreds of auxiliary craft.

The German Navy did not. It had two unfinished battleships, two badly damaged battlecruisers, a couple of cruisers, less than a dozen destroyers, some torpedo boats and not even that many submarines. And no landing craft worth the time of day.
In other words, the Royal Navy's Gibraltar detachment could have taken on the entire German navy in a fight and won. Arguably a single battleship like Warspite or Revenge could have.

That's the first and biggest problem to solve.
 
Welcome to the Board. Please don't be discouraged by the responses you are going to get, honestly including mine. A lot of us started out with impossible scenarios.

After invading France he then went ahead with operation sea lion and invaded Britain while at the same time sabotaging any attempts by the Americans to create the atom bomb while recruiting scientists to create the ultimate weapon.

First, Operation Sealion is a TERRIBLE idea. The Germans were planning to use river barges for troop transports, which would have been slaughtered by the Royal Navy. In short, it would have been a disaster which would have resulted in all ten divisions (all infantry) either dead in the Channel, or forced to surrender after their resupply is cut off (since all the ports combined in the landing area could give them some 10% of their needed supplies even IF captured intact).

Meanwhile, they can't really sabotage American efforts, amongst other reasons because the US hasn't started it in 1940. Meanwhile Germany's own efforts were so incorrect that they had concluded an atomic bomb was impossible after a couple of years, which actually was the BETTER option, since they also thought the reaction would be self-limiting when it...wouldn't. If they had managed to move ahead the resulting radiation leak would have killed the entire scientific team, whatever Party officials were there to watch, and then irradiated central Germany.

Then in 1942 invade the soviet union waiting a year to re group and re supply and use the hatred of Moscow to their advantage by recruiting Ukrainian's to fight alongside them to then take Moscow quickly with the co operation with Japan fighting in the eastern front. After taking the USSR then provide independence for the Ukrainians by installing a puppet government to make it seem like they have independence and by that time the first atom bomb has been tested.

Nope. First, the Nazis couldn't cooperate with Ukraine. They had to sieze the food supplies of the people in order to keep their armies moving, and people who are starting to starve are notoriously unlikely to be happy with the invader. In addition, Nazi doctrine calls for the murder of most of the Ukrainian population, and keeping the remainder as slave labor. It was called Generalplan Ost, look it up if you feel like not sleeping for a few weeks.

As for Japanese intervention in the Far East, ain't happening. First, the Far East army of the USSR was at full strength for the entire war, with more (and better) tanks, more artillery, more men, and more planes than the Japanese could bring against them. A Japanese invasion would have been a bloody failure.

Pearl harbour is conducted with the co operation with German forces to destroy the pacific fleet then drop an atomic bomb on new york, if they don't surrender then on Boston then on Chicago and so on until they gave in.

Apart from the impossibility of the Nazis getting an atomic bomb, there are lots of problems here. The biggest one is the sheer power of the United States. According to Paul Kennedy's "The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers" the US had control over approximately 41% of the WORLD'S warmaking power in 1939, and this was while the US hadn't bothered to mobilize in the slightest. It gets bigger as time goes on. Germany and Japan combined have approximately 16% (most of which is Germany). Seeing an issue here?

Is this a realistic way of how Germany could have a achieved world domination (apart from Japan)?

Sorry, but no. If you want to read an excellent World War II TL however I would recommend CalBear's Anglo/American-Nazi War, which follows the Anglo/American efforts to defeat the Reich following a Soviet collapse in 1943.
 
It is not impossible if Hitler concentrated all of his attention into finishing off Britain before he invaded the soviet union and finished bombing the RAF.


Yeah, it's still impossible, because the RAF wasn't what was preventing the invasion of Britain. The Royal Navy was. And the Royal Navy's qualitative and quantitative advantage over the Kreigsmarine was insurmountable with Germany's resources.

This is an alternate reality where Hitler was more strategic than ideological. He should of paid more attention to what the Americans were doing developing the atomic bomb and should of sent spies to sabotage the development of them.

This is an alternate reality where Hitler is more strategic. Strategy comes before ideology.

If he was strategic, he wouldn't have gotten anywhere near Moscow or the atomic bomb to begin with, because it's bad strategy to pick a fight with nearly everyone on the planet. If he was strategic, he would have stopped after the Sudetenland (or possibly a Danzig plebiscite).
 

SeaPony

Banned
I thought this was 'alternate history'. Okay then if Hitler before the war broke out gave more attention to Germany's navy and had prepared for operation sealion before the war he could of done it. He also knew about Americans developing nuclear weapons and Hitler gave more attention to the importance of science during war.
 

SeaPony

Banned
Yeah, it's still impossible, because the RAF wasn't what was preventing the invasion of Britain. The Royal Navy was. And the Royal Navy's qualitative and quantitative advantage over the Kreigsmarine was insurmountable with Germany's resources.



If he was strategic, he wouldn't have gotten anywhere near Moscow or the atomic bomb to begin with, because it's bad strategy to pick a fight with nearly everyone on the planet. If he was strategic, he would have stopped after the Sudetenland (or possibly a Danzig plebiscite).

But in the end around 1942 he had taken over most of continental Europe and was nearing Moscow almost all of his risks paid off until the tables turned.
 
I thought this was 'alternate history'. Okay then if Hitler before the war broke out gave more attention to Germany's navy and had prepared for operation sealion before the war he could of done it. He also knew about Americans developing nuclear weapons and Hitler gave more attention to the importance of science during war.

But then he couldn't have defeated France.

It is alternate history, but it needs to be plausible.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
I thought this was 'alternate history'.
It is Alternate History, that means we pay a lot of attention to the actual facts.

Okay then if Hitler before the war broke out gave more attention to Germany's navy and had prepared for operation sealion before the war he could of done it.

No, I'm afraid that if he does that then he loses the battle of France. Germany barely pulled the invasion of France off and any resources diverted to the Navy from the Army or Air Force seriously weaken that.


He also knew about Americans developing nuclear weapons and Hitler gave more attention to the importance of science during war.

Prove it. Provide evidence that Hitler knew about Americans developing nuclear weapons.
This is an assertion from you that I really want you to provide evidence for.
 

SeaPony

Banned
Welcome to the Board. Please don't be discouraged by the responses you are going to get, honestly including mine. A lot of us started out with impossible scenarios.



First, Operation Sealion is a TERRIBLE idea. The Germans were planning to use river barges for troop transports, which would have been slaughtered by the Royal Navy. In short, it would have been a disaster which would have resulted in all ten divisions (all infantry) either dead in the Channel, or forced to surrender after their resupply is cut off (since all the ports combined in the landing area could give them some 10% of their needed supplies even IF captured intact).

Meanwhile, they can't really sabotage American efforts, amongst other reasons because the US hasn't started it in 1940. Meanwhile Germany's own efforts were so incorrect that they had concluded an atomic bomb was impossible after a couple of years, which actually was the BETTER option, since they also thought the reaction would be self-limiting when it...wouldn't. If they had managed to move ahead the resulting radiation leak would have killed the entire scientific team, whatever Party officials were there to watch, and then irradiated central Germany.



Nope. First, the Nazis couldn't cooperate with Ukraine. They had to sieze the food supplies of the people in order to keep their armies moving, and people who are starting to starve are notoriously unlikely to be happy with the invader. In addition, Nazi doctrine calls for the murder of most of the Ukrainian population, and keeping the remainder as slave labor. It was called Generalplan Ost, look it up if you feel like not sleeping for a few weeks.

As for Japanese intervention in the Far East, ain't happening. First, the Far East army of the USSR was at full strength for the entire war, with more (and better) tanks, more artillery, more men, and more planes than the Japanese could bring against them. A Japanese invasion would have been a bloody failure.



Apart from the impossibility of the Nazis getting an atomic bomb, there are lots of problems here. The biggest one is the sheer power of the United States. According to Paul Kennedy's "The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers" the US had control over approximately 41% of the WORLD'S warmaking power in 1939, and this was while the US hadn't bothered to mobilize in the slightest. It gets bigger as time goes on. Germany and Japan combined have approximately 16% (most of which is Germany). Seeing an issue here?



Sorry, but no. If you want to read an excellent World War II TL however I would recommend CalBear's Anglo/American-Nazi War, which follows the Anglo/American efforts to defeat the Reich following a Soviet collapse in 1943.
If Germany had developed better sea to land invasion equipment before the war to invade Britain then in could of been possible with the help of an air invasion to get behind British lines at the coast.
 
After invading France he then went ahead with operation sea lion and invaded Britain

Not gonna happen, at least no successfully. This topic comes up so much that there's entire catalog of threads where people try to posit an idea that makes Sealion possible, and fail every time. There are numerous factors as to why a Reich invasion isn't going to work, but the basics boil down to an inability to destroy the Royal Navy, the inability to land troops in any meaningful fashion, and no logistical support whatsoever, and that the RAF will likely still be a going concern no matter how convinced Goering is they're destroyed.

at the same time sabotaging any attempts by the Americans to create the atom bomb while recruiting scientists to create the ultimate weapon.

A) The Third Reich's Intelligence Apparatus is hysterically bad.

B) The Third Reich's attempts at making an atomic bomb were hysterically bad, they had the post office working on their own project at one point IIRC.

C) Any scientists they can recruit has a vested interest in making the Nazis never have an atomic bomb. Ever. Take a look at the majority of scientists recruited in the US/UK efforts, these aren't people who are going to fall in love with the guys that are hellbent on exterminating them.

Then in 1942 invade the soviet union waiting a year to re group and re supply
That didn't exactly go so well in Our Timeline, and waiting any longer to invade allows the Soviets to strengthen their positions immensely over what they were OTL.

to their advantage by recruiting Ukrainian's to fight alongside them to then take Moscow quickly

How are they going to convince the Ukrainian's to fight alongside them, when a core tenet of their ideology was to exterminate them?

How are they going to equip the Ukrainian's to fight alongside them when they can't even equip their allies, much less themselves, with what they need?

co operation with Japan fighting in the eastern front.

How is Japan going to get anywhere? Historically speaking their ground war kit was one that made Italy's look good. They just don't have the equipment, numbers, or logistical support to get very far against the Soviets. Especially when their engaged in a life and death struggle with the United States.

After taking the USSR then provide independence for the Ukrainians by installing a puppet government to make it seem like they have independence and by that time the first atom bomb has been tested.

Pearl harbour is conducted with the co operation with German forces to destroy the pacific fleet then drop an atomic bomb on new york, if they don't surrender then on Boston then on Chicago and so on until they gave in.

Is this a realistic way of how Germany could have a achieved world domination (apart from Japan)?

Just not going to happen. While a popular idea in alternate history novels and whatever History Channel tries to sell is that Nazi Germany was two mistakes away from conquering everything, the reality is that it was never going to happen. Even if we use immense amounts of handwaves, you're more likely to see it end with the United States nuking the Third Reich into oblivion than the other way around.
 
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