Could Hitler have declared war on the US earlier?

I was wondering if anything could have made him decide that the US was defeatable and needed defeating.

I am wondering, say some kind of well publicized race riot makes him think the US is too deeply divided to really fight and then, perhaps, a favourite U Boat comander gets killed apparently by US Depth charges.

I kind of imagine if he did so he would do something idiotic.

He sends out Bismark or Tirpitz and instead of causing havok with convoys, although its presence would cause some, New York City is heavily shelled in the early hours of a Saturday morning
 
uhm.. no.. why would he? i mean fine.. he is everyones favoriote whack a mole whack job. but he wasnt exactly the dimest bulb in the room...

what good would it do to declare war on the USA in 39 or 40? hell at least he refrained 3 years before doing that.. it just doesnt make sence to declare war on a nation that could curb stomp your butt on its own if it really set its mind to it... economic potential of Germany vs the USA... USA wins.. Military potential of either nation and the USA wins in the long haul.. and by leaps and bounds. .. and great .. look we shelled NYC.. yay... doesnt do much good if you still have to contend with the RN who is your closest advesary out side of france.. whom well.. anyway.. back to the UK and USA ..

just no... no .. no and uhm.. no

he could .. but wouldnt.. so yes if you want to write a time line about it go ahead.. but .. it iwll get torn apart.. FDR wanted in the fight .. so any blatent excuse would have drawn the USA in earlier.. Germany went out of its way to not provoke the USA until it knew it didnt matter and the fight was on... look how that turned out...

so short answer no.. long answer .. and reasons.. read above... yes. america was not exactly the worlds greatest power in the period leading up to WW II .. but the potential and resolve were off the charts.. be like being an ant and bitting human.. you get squished.. especially when defending home turf a large ocean away and no real friends with boats to help you.. Russia? Germany could have taken them.. land based warefare.. better policies = win. america? how?
 
it just doesnt make sence to declare war on a nation that could curb stomp your butt on its own if it really set its mind to it...

You mean like the British Empire or the French Empire? Or, better, both at the same time? Or what about the USSR? How about all three at once?

Oh ... Yeah, right. ;)
 
uhm.. no.. why would he? i mean fine.. he is everyones favoriote whack a mole whack job. but he wasnt exactly the dimest bulb in the room...

what good would it do to declare war on the USA in 39 or 40? hell at least he refrained 3 years before doing that.. it just doesnt make sence to declare war on a nation that could curb stomp your butt on its own if it really set its mind to it... economic potential of Germany vs the USA... USA wins.. Military potential of either nation and the USA wins in the long haul.. and by leaps and bounds. .. and great .. look we shelled NYC.. yay... doesnt do much good if you still have to contend with the RN who is your closest advesary out side of france.. whom well.. anyway.. back to the UK and USA ..

just no... no .. no and uhm.. no

he could .. but wouldnt.. so yes if you want to write a time line about it go ahead.. but .. it iwll get torn apart.. FDR wanted in the fight .. so any blatent excuse would have drawn the USA in earlier.. Germany went out of its way to not provoke the USA until it knew it didnt matter and the fight was on... look how that turned out...

so short answer no.. long answer .. and reasons.. read above... yes. america was not exactly the worlds greatest power in the period leading up to WW II .. but the potential and resolve were off the charts.. be like being an ant and bitting human.. you get squished.. especially when defending home turf a large ocean away and no real friends with boats to help you.. Russia? Germany could have taken them.. land based warefare.. better policies = win. america? how?


All your points are valid, they were just as valid in september of 1939 as they were in December of 1941. I argue that you just need hitler to percieve some kind of advantage to be gained from declaring war on the US earlier as he did in OTL.
 
All your points are valid, they were just as valid in september of 1939 as they were in December of 1941. I argue that you just need hitler to percieve some kind of advantage to be gained from declaring war on the US earlier as he did in OTL.

problem is i can not think of a one.. he needs the USA to sleep.. not awaken and start taking names.. and he knew it.. you cant fight the UK who is arguably the worlds leading power at that point .. prepare for Russian invasion.. fight in africa.. support Italy.. and then fight someone on the other side of the planet who is fighting you fairly effectivly by selling and supplying goods to your enemies and not having a soldier in the fight..

so no.. i cant think of a sane reason why hittler would view the United States as anything but a nation run by racist white folk who are britian and frances biggest supporters.. best to keep them at arms length...

anyone think that Britian with out US help is going to pull off Overloard?
anyone think that Russia is still going to kick Germany's butt with the US?

the whole darn war hinged on what we did.. if i was hittler i never would of DoW against the USA and left it as it was... the USA can go fight in the pacific.. just stay out of Europe...

just dont know what puropse a DoW any earlier would have served
 

Cook

Banned
You mean like the British Empire or the French Empire? Or, better, both at the same time? Or what about the USSR? How about all three at once?

Oh ... Yeah, right. ;)

Hardly a reasoned argument; Britain and France declared war on Germany, not the other way around. Hitler had expected them to do nothing when he invaded Poland, just as they’d done nothing when he went into Czechoslovakia, and before that Austria, and before that the Rhineland, when he’d rearmed Germany, etc.

As to the Soviet Union; Germany and Russia by that time shared an enormous common land border. The Soviets were considered so weak that a campaign of only a few months was expected by everybody (the British expected them to last only a couple of months with some expecting them to collapse in four weeks!). The Soviets were also seen as recovering from the Purges and were anticipated to be ready to go to war some-time around 1943. And the Soviets were the ideological enemy of the regime.

Now to the United States; they were separated from Europe by the Atlantic, any fighting would be at sea, which would be playing to the US advantage and Germany’s weaknesses. Germany simply had no way of taking the war to America. And the American intervention in the First World War was seen at the time as significant even if downplayed by Hitler. Since the Americans had been escorting convoys and engaging any U-boats they detected near the convoys from mid-1941 onwards without response from the Germans it is clear that there was a very strong reluctance to go to war against America. Had American newspapers not published leaks of an Anglo-American agreement that in the event of America and Britain going to war against both Germany and Japan then Germany would have first priority, Hitler may not have been so quick to declare war when he did.
 
Now to the United States; they were separated from Europe by the Atlantic, any fighting would be at sea, which would be playing to the US advantage and Germany’s weaknesses. Germany simply had no way of taking the war to America. And the American intervention in the First World War was seen at the time as significant even if downplayed by Hitler. Since the Americans had been escorting convoys and engaging any U-boats they detected near the convoys from mid-1941 onwards without response from the Germans it is clear that there was a very strong reluctance to go to war against America. Had American newspapers not published leaks of an Anglo-American agreement that in the event of America and Britain going to war against both Germany and Japan then Germany would have first priority, Hitler may not have been so quick to declare war when he did.

Seconded. What most people don't realize is that from October 1941 the US and Germany were in an undeclared shooting war in the North Atlantic, in spite of the wishes of both sides to the contrary. Before then neither party had a real casus belli and neither party was ready for a conflict; we were still building up our strength and the Germans were operating at full stretch already.

Hitler may have been playing it by ear when it came to military operations, but he was a very astute politician, and he would never have declared war on us if he wasn't sure we were going to attack him anyway. Unless operations in Europe go a lot better for the Axis than IOTL there's no chance Germany will be in a position to declare war before they did so IOTL. One could even argue that their actual DOW was ill-advised, even if it was per their treaty obligations.
 

Cook

Banned
One could even argue that their actual DOW was ill-advised, even if it was per their treaty obligations.

Actually Germany were under no treaty obligations at all to declare war. The Tripartite Pact was defensive only, Japan have violated the required terms of the agreement by attacking the United States, moreover they had given Germany absolutely no warning of their intentions and made no effort to co-ordinate with their Axis partners. When Germany attacked Russia the Japanese had felt no obligation to likewise attack.

The Pact reads:

The Tripartite Pact between Japan, Germany, and Italy, 1940

The Governments of Japan, Germany, and Italy consider it as the condition precedent of any lasting peace that all nations in the world be given each its own proper place, have decided to stand by and co-operate with one another in their efforts in Greater East Asia and the regions of Europe respectively wherein it is their prime purpose to establish and maintain a new order of things, calculated to promote the mutual prosperity and welfare of the peoples concerned. It is, furthermore, the desire of the three Governments to extend cooperation to nations in other spheres of the world that are inclined to direct their efforts along lines similar to their own for the purpose of realizing their ultimate object, world peace. Accordingly, the Governments of Japan, Germany and Italy have agreed as follows:

ARTICLE 1. Japan recognizes and respects the leadership of Germany and Italy in the establishment of a new order in Europe.

ARTICLE 2. Germany and Italy recognize and respect the leadership of Japan in the establishment of a new order in Greater East Asia.

ARTICLE 3. Japan, Germany, and Italy agree to cooperate in their efforts on aforesaid lines. They further undertake to assist one another with all political, economic and military means if one of the Contracting Powers is attacked by a Power at present not involved in the European War or in the Japanese-Chinese conflict.

ARTICLE 4. With a view to implementing the present pact, joint technical commissions, to be appointed by the respective Governments of Japan, Germany and Italy, will meet without delay.

ARTICLE 5. Japan, Germany and Italy affirm that the above agreement affects in no way the political status existing at present between each of the three Contracting Powers and Soviet Russia.

ARTICLE 6. The present pact shall become valid immediately upon signature and shall remain in force ten years from the date on which it becomes effective. In due time, before the expiration of said term, the High Contracting Parties shall, at the request of any one of them, enter into negotiations for its renewal.
 
Lend Lease made war between Germany and the U.S. impossible to avoid. By late 1941 it was clear Germany couldn't win a war against the Soviet Union and the UK combined with the U.S. providing endless supplies to both of Germany's enemies. The goal Hitler had in declaring war on the U.S. was to sink as many American supply convoys to Russia and the UK as he could.

If Hitler didn't declare war against the U.S. after Pearl Harbor and lets say FDR didn't find a way to declare war on Germany which was unlikely Then you would have had All of Eastern and Central Europe controlled by the Soviet Union and France would have likely been taken by the UK after invading in say 1945.

Think about this one what if England during the U.S. Civil War decided to supply the South with massive amounts of arms, supplies and weapons and they decided to sink any American ship that tried to stop them. There would have been no way America and England could have avoided war.
 
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I meant with out the US .. my bad...

and thats with out LEND LEASE or being a giant distraction once we joined the war..

Lend Lease significantly shortened the length of the war, of course the Soviets were doing okay Germany in minor skirmishes before that, such as that one at Kursk, or Stalingrad.

I don't think it's realistic to say the US was pivotal for the war effort on the basis of being a giant distraction.
 
Lend Lease significantly shortened the length of the war, of course the Soviets were doing okay Germany in minor skirmishes before that, such as that one at Kursk, or Stalingrad.

Lend Lease to the Soviet's was already coming in to help the Soviet's with Stalingrad.

Without Lend Lease the UK would have likely made peace with Germany in 1941 or 42 at the latest so Russia would have had a one front war to fight. They still would have likely won the war by 1947 because Hitler had decided he was a military genius.
 
There seems to be a question mark over whether treaties caused Hitler to declare war on the US after Pearl Harbor.

Of course when one thinks of Hitler one must be reminded that he did NOT respect Hitler.

It would not have been a smart move for him to declare war but neither was Barborossa
 
The earliest possible point for Germany to declare war on the USA is the passing and signing of Lend-Lease. A case could be made that the USA was acting in a belligerent manner rather than as a neutral seeling material on a cash and carry basis
 
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