Could Have Been Cities: Canada Edition

How about Vancouver being a suburb of the New Westminster metropolis instead of the other way around. Probably a pipe dream since Vancouver became the port and New Westminster declined after the Frasier Gold rush and when the trans-Canadian railroad completed to Vancouver. But hey, here is a tip of the hat to New Westminster.

Also, Winnipeg retains the Fort Garry name

Lastly, Point Roberts secedes from Washington and joins British Columbia.

Could New Westminster have become the capital of British Columbia? If so, there is one way to make it more of a city.
 
Easy. The Trent-Severn Waterway was far more difficult, ditto the Rideau. The big sticking point is the Americans. The British didn't trust the Americans not to blow in case of a war, and America didn't trust Britain not to swiftly move warships to the Great Lakes. If somebody owns both banks there's no reason it can't get built a century or earlier.

Hmm I was always under the impression that the technology to undertake such a thing wasn't available until the late 19th century. Am I wrong in thinking that?

If so that's an interesting thing to consider!
 
Hmm I was always under the impression that the technology to undertake such a thing wasn't available until the late 19th century. Am I wrong in thinking that?

If so that's an interesting thing to consider!

It isn't that difficult to do and I'm away from my books right now (I'm at work). Upper Canada: The Formative Years, 1784-1841 has a great section on how Britain went and thought that it was a way better idea to be able to defend Canada and built the Rideau as opposed to the St. Lawrence. But even by 1849 the worst of the rapids had been tamed. A proper canal linking the St. Lawrence to the Great Lakes would have been doable with the technology of the day.

Ottawa probably takes a dive if it ever constructed though.
 
It isn't that difficult to do and I'm away from my books right now (I'm at work). Upper Canada: The Formative Years, 1784-1841 has a great section on how Britain went and thought that it was a way better idea to be able to defend Canada and built the Rideau as opposed to the St. Lawrence. But even by 1849 the worst of the rapids had been tamed. A proper canal linking the St. Lawrence to the Great Lakes would have been doable with the technology of the day.

Ottawa probably takes a dive if it ever constructed though.

That's actually very interesting to know! I suppose taming the rapids on the St. Lawrence and building expanded canals would do to connect the Lakes with the sea (only in spring-summer though :p) and would make it vastly easier to protect Canada from invasion.

I'd assume in this scenario that Ottawa remains a sleepy lumber town while Kingston becomes the economic/military heart of Ontario and the second major industrial center along the lakes and St. Lawrence.

Now that would make it a drag down knock out fight over a capital :D
 
I'd assume in this scenario that Ottawa remains a sleepy lumber town while Kingston becomes the economic/military heart of Ontario and the second major industrial center along the lakes and St. Lawrence.

Now that would make it a drag down knock out fight over a capital :D

I almost wonder if wouldn't wind up at Ottawa anyways. In Upper Canada you're going to have York and an enlarged Kingston... and much of the Kingston growth comes at the expense of York. In Lower Canada you're going to have Quebec City and a much enlarged Montreal. I'm tempted to say they still might just split the difference.

Plus, the timber trade being such a huge part of the economy the Rideau canal may get built anyways.
 
Could New Westminster have become the capital of British Columbia? If so, there is one way to make it more of a city.

Well apparently there was a considerable amount of chicanery that surrounded Victoria being chosen over New Westminster for the capital of the united Colony of British Columbia and Vancouver Island so perhaps if circumstances were a bit more favorable things might work out in favor of New Westminster.

If New Westminster was the capital of BC, it would be the obvious initial terminus for the CPR. Though likely this would mean nothing more than an alternate route as Vancouver is a far better location and one far more profitable for the CPR let's not forget! Still having New Westminster being on the CPR mainline instead of on a spur line would be immensely helpful. New West likely would maintain a good number of the people and industries that migrated to Vancouver in OTL, though they would certainly lose some. Construction on the CPR is also likely a lot faster due to not having to worry about reaching Victoria. Work likely starts in 1872/1873 in the Frazer Canyon and is suspended until it's picked up in 1881.

I also wonder if this alternate capital of BC might mean an earlier bridge over the Frazer south of New Westminster? This would also contribute to the city's boom as the lack of a railway Bridge was the only thing in OTL preventing New West from becoming the major rail hub in British Columbia. In TTL the city might just have enough clout to get it done despite all of the CPR's shouting.

I almost wonder if wouldn't wind up at Ottawa anyways. In Upper Canada you're going to have York and an enlarged Kingston... and much of the Kingston growth comes at the expense of York. In Lower Canada you're going to have Quebec City and a much enlarged Montreal. I'm tempted to say they still might just split the difference.

Plus, the timber trade being such a huge part of the economy the Rideau canal may get built anyways.

I don't know if Kingston can steal that much growth from York. The soil around York and the rest of Southern Ontario is some of the best of the world. You can only farm so much around Kingston...
 
I almost wonder if wouldn't wind up at Ottawa anyways. In Upper Canada you're going to have York and an enlarged Kingston... and much of the Kingston growth comes at the expense of York. In Lower Canada you're going to have Quebec City and a much enlarged Montreal. I'm tempted to say they still might just split the difference.

Plus, the timber trade being such a huge part of the economy the Rideau canal may get built anyways.

It was the natural compromise point I suppose. The Rideau canal made a good selling point though (not that anyone actually liked it back in the day :p). Economically the Rideau Canal would make sense for the timber trade to connect to the Great Lakes (save it going around Montreal and down the St. Lawrence) so a richer Canada could probably pull it off.

I don't know if Kingston can steal that much growth from York. The soil around York and the rest of Southern Ontario is some of the best of the world. You can only farm so much around Kingston...

Valid point about agriculture here. Kingston could still end up being a military/political/industrial city of a much greater population than OTL earlier with this early seaway project.

York is destined to become of the major cities in Ontario simply for its harbor and the access it has to the fantastic farmland around it. It will most likely outstrip Kingston in population at some point.
 
Vancouver has a far better harbor than New West - Burrard Inlet is a fjord, whereas New West has a shallow river. You could plausibly argue for a CPR that terminated at Port Moody, which preexisted, but there's no way it would be New West.
 
Well apparently there was a considerable amount of chicanery that surrounded Victoria being chosen over New Westminster for the capital of the united Colony of British Columbia and Vancouver Island so perhaps if circumstances were a bit more favorable things might work out in favor of New Westminster.

If New Westminster was the capital of BC, it would be the obvious initial terminus for the CPR. Though likely this would mean nothing more than an alternate route as Vancouver is a far better location and one far more profitable for the CPR let's not forget! Still having New Westminster being on the CPR mainline instead of on a spur line would be immensely helpful. New West likely would maintain a good number of the people and industries that migrated to Vancouver in OTL, though they would certainly lose some. Construction on the CPR is also likely a lot faster due to not having to worry about reaching Victoria. Work likely starts in 1872/1873 in the Frazer Canyon and is suspended until it's picked up in 1881.

I also wonder if this alternate capital of BC might mean an earlier bridge over the Frazer south of New Westminster? This would also contribute to the city's boom as the lack of a railway Bridge was the only thing in OTL preventing New West from becoming the major rail hub in British Columbia. In TTL the city might just have enough clout to get it done despite all of the CPR's shouting.



I don't know if Kingston can steal that much growth from York. The soil around York and the rest of Southern Ontario is some of the best of the world. You can only farm so much around Kingston...

I doubt think it will ever be as big as York, but it was the largest settlement in Upper Canada for several years. But there are several 'ifs' that could give a significant boost. The St. Lawrence canal coupled with the Rideau would be a huge boon to the city, if it had gotten the charter for the first bank as they'd originally hoped (as it stood, York got a sweetheart deal for establishing a bank needing only 50% of the capital threshold the government demanded of Kingston, which could have easily been reached). If those things all happen Kingston could have been a relatively thriving port city being the start/end of all the goods travelling through the Great Lakes before reaching Montreal as well as being a financial hub for Upper Canada and a military outpost guarding the canals.

York will pass it in time, but it's going to be a more drawn out process and I'm a believer that benefits stack so a boom in one city probably helps the others as well. The St. Lawrence canal will be a HUGE boon to Upper Canadian farmers and offer an external market for the surplus agriculture which probably means a decade (or more) earlier settlement of everything west of York. So places like London and Windsor probably see an increase in population as well.
 
Vancouver has a far better harbor than New West - Burrard Inlet is a fjord, whereas New West has a shallow river. You could plausibly argue for a CPR that terminated at Port Moody, which preexisted, but there's no way it would be New West.

Port Moody was initially selected as the western terminus of the CPR but after the CPR reached Port Moody, Van Horne decided that the land available was not sufficient for future expansion and decided to extend to Vancouver. There were lawsuits launched over this decision and perhaps if one of those succeeded.
 
How exactly could have prince Rupert gotten a better deal? It has a large harbor THAT'S ICE FREE YEAR ROUND, a rail connection to the rest of Canada, and is far away enough from the U.S. so that security doesn't have to be bothered with all that much.

I think the distance from the U.S. is more a negative than a positive. Canada has conducted a vigorous trade with the U.S. for most of its history. And it doesn't really make sense for Canada's main Pacific port to be so far north.

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It's significantly shorter to travel from Calgary or Edmonton to Vancouver, no small consideration when you consider how mountainous British Columbia is.
 
I think the distance from the U.S. is more a negative than a positive. Canada has conducted a vigorous trade with the U.S. for most of its history. And it doesn't really make sense for Canada's main Pacific port to be so far north.

map.jpg


It's significantly shorter to travel from Calgary or Edmonton to Vancouver, no small consideration when you consider how mountainous British Columbia is.

Vancouver will always be a lot more important just because Canada will want to prevent American control of the lower mainland of British Columbia too.

A different Alaska boundary dispute could change the whole region of northern BC depending on how he border gets shifted and which towns get development.
 
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